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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: David Rooney on March 03, 2009, 12:54:23 PM
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Is it always the case that in your typical office scenario, firedoors to offices off of corridors should always have door closers fitted ??
In this particular instance, there are intumescent strips in the frames (no cold smoke brushes) but the doors are swinging in the breeze.
The building is only 5 years old etc, and the risk assessment by a third party hasn't hightlighted it as a problem.
Thanks
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Is it always the case that in your typical office scenario, firedoors to offices off of corridors should always have door closers fitted ??
In this particular instance, there are intumescent strips in the frames (no cold smoke brushes) but the doors are swinging in the breeze.
The building is only 5 years old etc, and the risk assessment by a third party hasn't hightlighted it as a problem.
Thanks
Normally not unless the corridor is a dead end condition.
Because a fire door is in situ it certainly doesn't mean that it is needed. I recently carried out a FRA of a factory which contained a store room within the production area. The store had a fire door fitted and had all the trimmings. SC, intumescent and smoke seals and "Fire Door-Keep Closed" sign. Problem was it did not have a ceiling.
You will probably find that an over provision of fire doors is caused by designers not knowing when they were not needed.
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.....and also by builders that can make a few more quid out of a client by providing top-spec, irrespective of whether it's needed.
I also had a scenario where one corner of a big office was split up into smaller units (roughly 2mtrs X 2mtrs each room) with no change of use and all the new doors were full fire doors with full seals and closers...my customer only found out when he asked why I hadn't provided FDKS signs on them to which I replied that although they were fire doors, they didn't need to be so could have been wedged open to his hearts delight!
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Sometime people use fire doors because they are a bit tougher than ordinary doors. I've also found fire door keep shut signs on non-fire doors they were used to encourage people to shut doors for acoustice/thermal insulation rather than fire safety.
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Normally not unless the corridor is a dead end condition.
And according to the guidance books not even then if there is AFD to all the rooms!
If you put closers on doors that don't really need them you are just wasting money in some situations as they will just get wedged & the wedge habit is one you want to avoid getting staff used to.
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Thanks men... it's not really my area but just interested to know....
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I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters. Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.
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I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters. Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.
I have stopped being amazed jokar.
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I have stopped being amazed jokar.
Thats amazing NT
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I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters. Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.
I have stopped being amazed jokar.
I mean I have stopped being a maze D Jokar. I keep getting lost in myself.
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I am continually amazed by the lack of knowledge, not you David, of individuals who do FRA's and audits with regard to separation and compartmentation matters. Without at least some background information from ADB, the CLG guides are useless.
So with this in mind... and then bringing 7273-4 into the equation where various allowances are made with regard whether fire doors are installed along corridors etc... how is a fire alarm designer supposed to know what's what unless he's got a degree in building regs and mind reading ??
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NT thinks it is part of a maze, perhaps making it crystal.
I suppose it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Without being a FA engineer, are you concerned about noise attenuation, the length of corridors without fire doors, distances apart of BGCP and how the structure will affect this?
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Saw this late... Is this another example of confusing advice being given in the HGM guides then? As mentioned already in this thread by others, the diagrams show no self closers on doors with AFD yet the info on self closing devices (p122 in offices and shops guide) says "All fire-resisting doors, other than those to locked cupbaords and service ducts, should be fitted with an appropriately controlled self-closing device".
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Saw this late... Is this another example of confusing advice being given in the HGM guides then? As mentioned already in this thread by others, the diagrams show no self closers on doors with AFD yet the info on self closing devices (p122 in offices and shops guide) says "All fire-resisting doors, other than those to locked cupbaords and service ducts, should be fitted with an appropriately controlled self-closing device".
I think that's easily explained dar1. The diagram you I think you are referring to shows doors in a dead end situation as not being fire resisting as the risk is controlled by detection in the rooms. As the doors are not FR there is no need to make them self closing. If the risk was controlled by providing fire doors along the dead end condition then they should be self closing, as the paragragh is stating.
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As many have stated before, the guidance documents, whatever they are and whatever are being used can not be read in isolation. You need to understand all of the principles to make a correct judgement on whether things are correct or not and to take account of the risk factors.
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Thanks Nearlythere but apologies as I'm still a bit confused. If self closers are not needed unless there is a dead end situation (as appears to be suggested in the diagrams you correctly said I was referring to), I can't understand why p122 of the guide contains the sentence I wuoted in my previous post that all fire doors should have self clsoers?
I'm not arguing (honestly), just trying to understand! If fire doors didn't always need closers this would be great and would save a lot of propping!
When would you insist on fire doors being on closers?
Thanks
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Hello Jokar,
Our posts crossed paths! I understand the need to make a risk based decision and that if you've got AFD then this may negate the need for self closing fire doors.
What I'm struggling with though is the assertion that self closers aren't needed ordinarily needed whereas the Fire guides and Building Regs Part B do seem fairly unequivical in this requirement where fire doors are fitted.
Maybe I've misunderstood some of the posts in this thread though so please bear with me?
Thanks
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Thanks Nearlythere but apologies as I'm still a bit confused. If self closers are not needed unless there is a dead end situation (as appears to be suggested in the diagrams you correctly said I was referring to), I can't understand why p122 of the guide contains the sentence I wuoted in my previous post that all fire doors should have self clsoers?
I'm not arguing (honestly), just trying to understand! If fire doors didn't always need closers this would be great and would save a lot of propping!
When would you insist on fire doors being on closers?
Thanks
Because dar1 it is only fire doors which usually need to be self closing or maintained locked. If the door is not fire resisting, and does not have to be because of other control measures, then there is no need for it to be self closing.
Fire resisting doors which are subject to normal traffic would have self closing devices fitted unless they are provided with hold open devices designed to release the door to allow it to close in the event of a fire. Fire doors to stores and cupboards can be controlled by keeping them locked shut.
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Dar1
I'm am in the middle of this exact scenario
A dead end corridor with fire doors and self closers are being wedged open...usual stuff...too hot etc
so we are fitting auto detection in all rooms and removing the self closers. The doors are still the same doors...it would be daft to change them for a non- fire door!
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Thanks all, just had the lightbulb moment.
Think my initial intepretation of the question was wrong. I can see now the question was related more to whether if the doors are inappropriate/unnecessary as fire doors in the first place did they still need closers.
So, where the fire door is needed for compartmenation etc reasons and safeguarding escape routes, then closers would still be needed. In other instances where not e.g. due to AFD in all rooms or the fire door was not necessary, then closers woud not be needed.
Thanks for the clarification
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Many buildings have fire resisting doors installed by architects in locations where a fire resisting door is not required. If the door has been installed but the fire strategy does not require a fire resisting door in this location then no self closer is required.
It can be very confusing though, had a discussion with a young fire officer this week in this same scenario. The office doors had fire seals and three hinges but no self closers, a fire officer served a letter of non compliance asking for self closers to be fitted, when I pointed out that the offices had two way travel and the partitions had large vision panels with plain glazing he stammered a bit and promised to send a satisfactory letter.
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bless the young fire officer. I hope you were gentle Kurnal. Self closers only really important when considering sleeping accomodation. Even then you may assume that the door will be kept closed for security and privacy (until fire occurs and they run out of their rooms forgetting to close doors behiond them)
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Many buildings have fire resisting doors installed by architects in locations where a fire resisting door is not required. If the door has been installed but the fire strategy does not require a fire resisting door in this location then no self closer is required.
It can be very confusing though, had a discussion with a young fire officer this week in this same scenario. The office doors had fire seals and three hinges but no self closers, a fire officer served a letter of non compliance asking for self closers to be fitted, when I pointed out that the offices had two way travel and the partitions had large vision panels with plain glazing he stammered a bit and promised to send a satisfactory letter.
How could a fire officer, regardless of age, not have seen the reason why a self closer was not needed? Where would you start to negotiate issues of something of a more complex nature because anything else would be?
Is this the level of competency we must now expect of New Fire Safety Officer?
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self closers are a pain in the arse on two way travel routes cos complaints are always coming in that the doors are being wedged open...take the things off...saves wedging!
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take the things off...saves wedging!
Obviously after assessing whether it is required as a fire door?
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no civvy...rip em off willy nilly ;D
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A modern fire-resisting door leaf doesn't need to cost much more than a non-fire resisting door leaf; the frames (for FD30 at least) need not typically be better timber and are often pre-machined on one face for the intumescent strips (which need only cost a few quid per doorset). So, what sometimes happens is rather than running the risk that they won't install a fire door where it's wanted, the chippies will install fire doors, including intumescent seals, everywhere, 'cos it's easier, less risky & doesn't cost them very much.
BTW that fire resisting doorsets are more robust isn't necessarily true - there are some perfectly adequate fire doors that are made of little else but chipboard with a hardwood lipping on each long edge.