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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Benzerari on March 04, 2009, 07:40:34 PM
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Have seen and heard several times, about sites under construction, having temporary and rough fire alarm systems with cables hanging throughout, is there any specific fire alarm system's standards, to be applied to any site under construction?
Also, I have heard of fire accident which caused death and damage, i.e. in Dubai and China... etc, and the fire occured while the building was under construction. What are the standards applicable in UK, in this matter?
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Sites I've seen 'currently' under construction have only always had rotary bells along with extinguishers.
Site cabins may have some kind of basic system, i.e. break glasses smoke sensors/sounders, but apart from that, I cannot recall anything more.
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Its all a bit of a mess Benz.
The Construction Design and Management (CDM) Regulations apply to most building projects.
There are fire safety regulations within the (CDM) Regs- Regulations 38 - 41. The CDM Regs identify duty holders in a completely different way to the Fire Safety Order - defining roles such as clients, designers, co-ordinators, principal contractors etc.
There is an ACOP setting out how the CDM regs should be implemented. Its available from ther HSE – L144. The ACOP addresses issues such as temporary measures for raising the alarm on fire during the constructon phase where in the main the only persons at risk are the builders and whilst few of the structural precautions are in place generally fire loading in the building is also low. (I said generally!!!!) Theres another more practical older guidance document HSG168.
On the other hand the Fire Safety Order applies to all places including building sites. The Fire Safety Order is enforced by the HSE on a building site that is fully self contained and secure. Where the site is part of a complex with other occupiers in addition to the site personnel eg updating of a retail unit in a shopping centre, then the Fire Safety Order is enforced by the Fire Authority.
The Construction Design and Management (CDM) regs mirror this and on sites where the fire Authority are the enforcement Authority under Fire Safety Order they are also responsible for enforcement of the CDM Regs 38- 41 ( see Regulation 46- Enforcement)
Under the Fire Safety Order the Responsible Persons (RP), must carry out risk assessments to protect relevant persons. In a building with multiple employers each RP must cooperate and communicate and carry out a risk assessment in so far as he has control.
The CDM Regs identify duty holders in a completely different way to the Fire Safety Order- defining roles such as clients, designers, co-ordinators, principal contractors etc. Some CDM duty holders may be extremely difficult to pin down as Responsible persons under the Fire Safety Order.
Nationally I dont think the Fire Authorities appear to be aware or equipped to deal wth their enforcement duties under the CDM regs. Whilst the CDM duties and Health and Safety planning process appear to be working well on sites I think its all a terrible mess in terms of the Fire Safety Order.
And apart from some general guidance published by the FPA there appears to be no national guidance guidance available on the application of the Fire Safety Order to building sites and benchmark standards to be applied. Hence the more relevant and available guidance- that issued under the CDM ACOP - tends to be more common. Trouble is it does not effectively protect all persons who may be at risk in the event of a fire- it only focusses on site workers and not passers by for example.
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Its all a bit of a mess Benz.
The Construction Design and Management (CDM) Regulations apply to most building projects.
There are fire safety regulations within the (CDM) Regs- Regulations 38 - 41. The CDM Regs identify duty holders in a completely different way to the Fire Safety Order - defining roles such as clients, designers, co-ordinators, principal contractors etc.
There is an ACOP setting out how the CDM regs should be implemented. Its available from ther HSE – L144. The ACOP addresses issues such as temporary measures for raising the alarm on fire during the constructon phase where in the main the only persons at risk are the builders and whilst few of the structural precautions are in place generally fire loading in the building is also low. (I said generally!!!!) Theres another more practical older guidance document HSG168.
On the other hand the Fire Safety Order applies to all places including building sites. The Fire Safety Order is enforced by the HSE on a building site that is fully self contained and secure. Where the site is part of a complex with other occupiers in addition to the site personnel eg updating of a retail unit in a shopping centre, then the Fire Safety Order is enforced by the Fire Authority.
The Construction Design and Management (CDM) regs mirror this and on sites where the fire Authority are the enforcement Authority under Fire Safety Order they are also responsible for enforcement of the CDM Regs 38- 41 ( see Regulation 46- Enforcement)
Under the Fire Safety Order the Responsible Persons (RP), must carry out risk assessments to protect relevant persons. In a building with multiple employers each RP must cooperate and communicate and carry out a risk assessment in so far as he has control.
The CDM Regs identify duty holders in a completely different way to the Fire Safety Order- defining roles such as clients, designers, co-ordinators, principal contractors etc. Some CDM duty holders may be extremely difficult to pin down as Responsible persons under the Fire Safety Order.
Nationally I dont think the Fire Authorities appear to be aware or equipped to deal wth their enforcement duties under the CDM regs. Whilst the CDM duties and Health and Safety planning process appear to be working well on sites I think its all a terrible mess in terms of the Fire Safety Order.
And apart from some general guidance published by the FPA there appears to be no national guidance guidance available on the application of the Fire Safety Order to building sites and benchmark standards to be applied. Hence the more relevant and available guidance- that issued under the CDM ACOP - tends to be more common. Trouble is it does not effectively protect all persons who may be at risk in the event of a fire- it only focusses on site workers and not passers by for example.
Thanks for this info Kurnal;
If there is no national guidance available on the application of the FSO to building sites and standards to be applied, do you think because UK hasn't yet experienced loss of lifes and properties while the building is still under construction, like other emerging countries?
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There have been some very significant fires on building sites though Benz, although perhaps no major loss of life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5173808.stm
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I have asked a few construction company project managers and they don't seem particularly aware that the Fire Safety Order applies, and they seem to think they have covered all their duties with the 3 specific articles of the CDM regs.
The HSE probably care very little as they have many more things to worry about, like the many lives that are lost during construction by other means. It would be a bad use of resources to all of a sudden direct people towards fire safety on construction sites when more than 50 people die per year (77 in 2006 from a quick net search) from other incidents.
Fire Authorities do not seem to bothered about construction sites either. At then end of the day a construction site has the same duties under the Fire Safety Order as everybody else, but it might take a death followed by a prosecution before anything else happens, but if the HSE are the enforcers then they may go for it under the CDM regs anyway.
HSE and the Fire Authorites are supposed to target the risk, so unless they start making a risk of themselves then I guess they may remain untouched.
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The HSE has recently issued for consultation updated guidance on fire safety on construction sites, HSG168.
Its very much in early draft stages with no end of mistakes (IMHO) but if anyone wants to see a copy for comment then please PM me.
I am going to respond via the FIA. One interesting point on which they are seeking ideas is how to prevent major fire spread in the construction phase of timber framed buildings as recently ccurred in London. They are currently looking at how compartmentation could be provided to this end, any ideas welcome. My own view is that such passive measures are not realistic unless we have a hybrid construction method using panels or masonry as well as the timber frame.
But I am going to suggest the method of construction and exposure of adjoining properties during the construction phase be assessed in accordance with BR187 and if there is an unacceptable exposure risk then that timber framed construction is not appropriate due only to fire risk in the construction phase.
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For those wanting to have a look at the CDM ACOPS
It can be downloaded free..
http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf
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You need to search for CDM ACOPS after you have clicked on Hammers link.
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For those wanting to have a look at the CDM ACOPS
It can be downloaded free..
http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproduct.jsf
Hopefully this link will direct you more
http://books.hse.gov.uk/hse/public/saleproducts.jsf
Then just go down to the CDM ACOPS
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It dont work ham you have to search for it.
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Just a bit more info, re the FA involvment
In determining responsibility for enforcement of the Regulations consideration must be given to the following
The configuration of the construction site in relation to occupied premises.
The physical separation of the construction site and the occupied premises i.e. space separation.
The fire resistance of separating walls, floors, doors etc between the construction site and occupied premises.
The risk of fire spread between the construction site and the occupied premises.
If the FA are carring out enforcement they should concentrate on the following parts of the site under the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations 2007
• Regulation 39 – The preparation and implementation of emergency procedures to include the necessary evacuation of all or part of the site. such procedures are to be made known to all persons concerned and be tested at regular intervals.
• Regulation 40 - Provision of a suitable number of emergency routes and exits (including emergency lighting where necessary) and the maintenance of those routes and exits.
• Regulation 41 – The provision of suitable firefighting equipment and fire detectors and alarm systems. Such equipment is to be accesible and tested and maintained as appropriate. Personnel on the construction site shall be trained in the use of firefighting equipment.
hope this helps
rn 976
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If the FA have responsiblity for enforcement of those parts of the CDM regs, then they also enforce the RRO in the construction site.
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In my opinion the Fire Safety Order is the key most important legislation that should be enforced on Construction Sites, whether by the HSE or Fire Authority. I say this because the CDM Regs do not take into account the safety of people off the site who could be affected by a fire.
The CDM Regs create different dutyholders to the Fire Safety Order.
in my experience when I visit construction sites (I train several construction companies in fire safety) the dutyholders under the CDM Regs tend NOT to be even aware of the Fire Safety Order. I think (My Opinion only) this is because on those sites where the HSE are responsible for enforcement of the Fire Safety Order they actually only enforce the CDM Regs. This way they only have to liaise and deal with the single set of duty holders for all safety issues under the CDM Regs.
As a result of my experience with the Industry I believe that HSE do not consider the Responsible Person or in practical terms enforce the Fire Safety Order.
And the Construction companies get away without considering other relevant persons off the site. Hence Colindale et al.
Now if this is total piffle please correct me. But thats how I see it.
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http://www.fseonline.co.uk/articles.asp?article_id=9686&viewcomment=1&OmniTest_CampName=fseeditorial-15-01-10&OmniCamp_Name=fseeditorial-15-01-10&OmniWS_Name=Fire%20Safety%20%26%20Engineering%20%28FSE%29%204943.62230-62&OmniWS_ID=3&OmniPR_Name=Newsletter_FSE%20Weekly%20Editorial&OmniPR_ID=3&OmniLink_Label=more&OmniDBG_URN=&OmniDBG_File_ID=&OmniSeg_Code=&OmniCC_Code=&OmniComp_Name=SRM%20LTD&OmniJob_Title=Consultant&Omni_Source=
In regards to considering FSO is the most important legislation for construction sites, I totally dis-agree. From working on many construction sites, there are far more important issues/legislation that are life threatening than the risk to life in the event of fire on construction sites. From a property damage view, obviously the FSO elevates itself, but from a pure life safety view, there are many more high risk activities that need addressing and prioritising before we reach the subject of fire safety.
I have no got the figures by hand, but just have a look at the annual fatalities on construction sites over the last 10 years to give you a understanding of where the HSE target.
I feel if all construction sites follow a robust regime in line with HSG 168 and what is included in the CDM Regs, then that should be sufficient.
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I would agree with much of what you say Hammer1 but to me the proof is in the pudding.
It appears to me that people outside the building site are currently being placed at risk as a result of a fire on some sites due to the radiated heat flux and smoke.
I believe the problem is caused by the differences in the overlapping legislation. The CDM Regulations covering fire safety focus ONLY and specifically on the people on site. Any consideration of the risk to people off site arises only as a result of Section 3 of the HASAWA 1974.
The Fire Safety Order very clearly covers All Relevant Persons. Where the HSE are the Enforcing body under the Fire Safety Order, article 47 does NOT apply so actually they have a double barrelled gun in their arsenal.
But in carrying out their enforcement duties unless they broaden their focus under the CDM Regs to include consideration of Section 3 of HASAWA (and which specific CDM Regulation would they apply to deliver this?) the Fire Safety Order is the only effective legislation to protect Persons outside the curtilege of the site.
All in my opinion of course, and stated in the interest of discussion and understanding , and not wanting to imply criticism of any particular agency or event. (Had a couple of emails from people who think I am pointing fingers at them. This is absolutely NOT the case I have been banging on about the CDM Regs and Fire Safety since the last ACOP was published in 2007)
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One issue that has occurred that really concerns me is part-occupation of premises being constructed (or being refurbished). Developers often like to have people move in whilst much of the rest of the building is still a building site. If those timber-framed buildings that have become huge bonfires had been partly occupied at the time of the incident then we could have been looking at multiple fatalities, I should think.
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In that instance the RRO would be enforced by the Fire Authority, and the simple answer to whether the building could be partly occupied while in its unprotected timber form should be a resounding "no" via a prohibition/restriction notice.
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As Fishy has stated though it happens and the only way an Enforcer would know is if they went looking for it or were told.
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The "Joint Code of Practise on the Protection form Fire of Construction Sites and Buildings Undergoung Renovation" published by the Construction Confederation and the FPA is excellent for this sort of thing.
It is typically a requirement of any JCT contract and insurance companies and is easy to understand.
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Just published
may be of help as well
Construction Industry Publications Ltd
Document Number CHSM Section 5
Title Construction Health and Safety Manual - Section 5: Fire
Publication Date Published Dec 2009
:)
rn976