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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: nearlythere on March 23, 2009, 04:00:31 PM
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Are there Regulations to this Order as there are in N.I.?
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No.
Article 24 of the Fire safety Order gives the Secretary of State the power to make Regulations and the article goes on to explain the scope of any such regs and on whom they may be applied, but any such Regulations must be implemented by Statutory Instrument- ie subject to the scrutiny of Parliament and following consultation with interested parties.
None made yet thank goodness. Its bad enough as it is.
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Some of the NI Regulations are torturous for the average employer especially the Dangerous Substances one.
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Hi Nearly. in Scotland the Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006 came from the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005. The 'Dangerous Substances regs. are indeed written in very open terms, but the assessment and risk reduction methods are straightforward enough (ish).
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Hi Nearly. in Scotland the Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006 came from the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005. The 'Dangerous Substances regs. are indeed written in very open terms, but the assessment and risk reduction methods are straightforward enough (ish).
Morn AB. What are the Regs which determine if a Substance is Dangerous?
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The fire safety order has had a virtual cut & paste of DSEAR (Dangerous Substances & Explosive Atmosphere Regs.) inserted into it.
If you look at articles 12, 16 & Part 4 of schedule 1 you will see that they are almost identical to DSEAR.
The fire safety order deals with general fire precautions only not process risks, so the responsible person must take into account how these dangerous substances may effect the fire risk only not the risk of mercury poisoning.
DSEAR is still in force and should be used by the HSE for process risks, so the situation really hasn’t changed since fire authorities became the enforcing authorities for parts of DSEAR when the FPWP Regs. were last amended.
Dangerous substances are defined in article 2 of the Order and the definition is identical to DSEAR, basically substances classified under CHIP and other scarey biscuit preparations, dusts & mixtures ::) .......simples!!!
The Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations also appear to have the same cut and paste from DSEAR.......those Scottish chaps like to think their so very different so please don't tell them let Todddy carry on with his dream 8).
..........and article 24 is an exactish copy of section 12 of the FP Act under which the Sub-Surface Railway Regs were introduced.......and these are retained under the FSO as if thet were made by virtue of article 24.
Do I win anorak of the week competition? :'(
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Good afternnon NT, this is from The Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006, Part 1, 'Preliminary', Regulation 2(1)
"Dangerous Substance" means–
(a) a substance or preparation which meets the criteria in the approved classification and labelling guide for classification as a substance or preparation which is explosive, oxidising, extremely flammable, highly flammable or flammable, whether or not that substance or preparation is classified under the CHIP Regulations;
(b) a substance or preparation which because of its physico-chemical or chemical properties and the way it is used or is present in relevant premises creates a risk; and
(c) any dust, whether in the form of solid particles or fibrous materials or otherwise, which can form an explosive mixture with air or an explosive atmosphere;
"explosive atmosphere" means a mixture, under atmospheric conditions, of air and one or more dangerous substances in the form of gases, vapours, mists or dusts in which, after ignition has occurred, combustion spreads to the entire unburned mixture;
"hazard", in relation to a dangerous substance, means the physico-chemical or chemical property of that substance which has the potential to give rise to fire affecting the safety of a person, and references in these Regulations to "hazardous" are to be construed accordingly;
preparation" means a mixture or solution of two or more substances;
"safety data sheet" means a safety data sheet within the meaning of regulation 5 of the CHIP Regulations;
I am presuming that the NI version is similar.
However, Phil's anorak claim is a very accurate account where all the versions came from
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Good afternnon NT, this is from The Fire Safety (Scotland) Regulations 2006, Part 1, 'Preliminary', Regulation 2(1)
"Dangerous Substance" means–
(a) a substance or preparation which meets the criteria in the approved classification and labelling guide for classification as a substance or preparation which is explosive, oxidising, extremely flammable, highly flammable or flammable, whether or not that substance or preparation is classified under the CHIP Regulations;
(b) a substance or preparation which because of its physico-chemical or chemical properties and the way it is used or is present in relevant premises creates a risk; and
(c) any dust, whether in the form of solid particles or fibrous materials or otherwise, which can form an explosive mixture with air or an explosive atmosphere;
"explosive atmosphere" means a mixture, under atmospheric conditions, of air and one or more dangerous substances in the form of gases, vapours, mists or dusts in which, after ignition has occurred, combustion spreads to the entire unburned mixture;
"hazard", in relation to a dangerous substance, means the physico-chemical or chemical property of that substance which has the potential to give rise to fire affecting the safety of a person, and references in these Regulations to "hazardous" are to be construed accordingly;
preparation" means a mixture or solution of two or more substances;
"safety data sheet" means a safety data sheet within the meaning of regulation 5 of the CHIP Regulations;
I am presuming that the NI version is similar.
However, Phil's anorak claim is a very accurate account where all the versions came from
Yes and the criteria is - “approved classification and labelling guide” means the Approved Guide to the Classification
and Labelling of Dangerous Substances and Dangerous Preparations (5th Edition)(3) approved
by the Health and Safety Commission on 16th April 2002;
My problem is in relation to the quantity levels or conditions of use or storage of any level of flammability which would make it "Dangerous". I assumed this would have been a factor. A match is highly flammable. Is it Dangerous under the guide?
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My problem is in relation to the quantity levels or conditions of use or storage of any level of flammability which would make it "Dangerous". I assumed this would have been a factor. A match is highly flammable. Is it Dangerous under the guide?
I give up!!! yes matches are very scarey.....close all ports and airports!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry Nearlythere....I dont mean to be rude but this is surely where risk assessment comes into play...a match is a bit scarey....a box of matches, very scarey.........a match factory....................HSE will sort.
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My problem is in relation to the quantity levels or conditions of use or storage of any level of flammability which would make it "Dangerous". I assumed this would have been a factor. A match is highly flammable. Is it Dangerous under the guide?
I give up!!! yes matches are very scarey.....close all ports and airports!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry Nearlythere....I dont mean to be rude but this is surely where risk assessment comes into play...a match is a bit scarey....a box of matches, very scarey.........a match factory....................HSE will sort.
I think I was being a little cynical about the match issue bit PB but yes you are rude to put it politely.
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Well I'm sorry that you take offence Nearlythere..I was trying to help.
If you read DSEAR or any other legislation that has cut and pasted sections of DSEAR, which no doubt includes the regulations you refer to you, will see that the quantity of the substance involved and the way in which the substance is used needs to be taken into account when assessing the risk.
A thermometer may contain mercury, does every workplace with a thermometer need to take that into account when carrying out their fire risk assessment???...I would suggest not.
There are various Approved Codes of Practice that give guidance and if the situation warrants it, you would expect the responsible person to refer to the ACOP.
What you must remember is that fire safety enforcing officers are only interested in general fire precautions and not process risks. So the scarier situations will be dealt with using the appropriate legislation and suitably competent enforcers.
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Well I'm sorry that you take offence Nearlythere..I was trying to help.
If you read DSEAR or any other legislation that has cut and pasted sections of DSEAR, which no doubt includes the regulations you refer to you, will see that the quantity of the substance involved and the way in which the substance is used needs to be taken into account when assessing the risk.
A thermometer may contain mercury, does every workplace with a thermometer need to take that into account when carrying out their fire risk assessment???...I would suggest not.
There are various Approved Codes of Practice that give guidance and if the situation warrants it, you would expect the responsible person to refer to the ACOP.
What you must remember is that fire safety enforcing officers are only interested in general fire precautions and not process risks. So the scarier situations will be dealt with using the appropriate legislation and suitably competent enforcers.
Thank you for that more mature and informative response PhilB. Wasn't that difficult was it?
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No a mature and informative response was not that difficult.
I'm so pleased that it has your approval. I shall try to remember never to inject any humour, sarcasm or wit into any future responses to cynical questions. :-X
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That's the problem facing all of us who carry out fire risk assessments, when is a substance 'dangerous'?
It's all wrapped in what it is, what it is being used for. and how it is being used / stored / transported. the obvious and blatant 'dangerous substances' are generally not a problem, it the lesser quantities and specialised uses that need careful appraisal.
Of course there are various approaches, ranging from the totally presciptive supervision of any quantity of a substance, to ignoring any reference to 'dangerous substances'. The former approach normally brings accusations of heavy handed obstructive regualtion hugging and the latter can see you in court explaining away a recent disaster.
Knowledge of and reference to the ACoPs and CoP's helps, as does advice, guidance and understanding from our peer group. (the peer group of fire risk assessors and not any other group of peers)
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That's the problem facing all of us who carry out fire risk assessments, when is a substance 'dangerous'?
It's all wrapped in what it is, what it is being used for. and how it is being used / stored / transported. the obvious and blatant 'dangerous substances' are generally not a problem, it the lesser quantities and specialised uses that need careful appraisal.
Of course there are various approaches, ranging from the totally presciptive supervision of any quantity of a substance, to ignoring any reference to 'dangerous substances'. The former approach normally brings accusations of heavy handed obstructive regualtion hugging and the latter can see you in court explaining away a recent disaster.
Knowledge of and reference to the ACoPs and CoP's helps, as does advice, guidance and understanding from our peer group. (the peer group of fire risk assessors and not any other group of peers)
Good response AB. Thank you.
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It's all wrapped in what it is, what it is being used for. and how it is being used / stored / transported. the obvious and blatant 'dangerous substances' are generally not a problem, it the lesser quantities and specialised uses that need careful appraisal.
I agree to a point Dennis and surely this is one reason that assessments should only be carried out by suitably competent persons. If one's not competent one shouldn't get involved in those areas. For those who do need to get involved there are ACOPs and other guidance available.
What is most important is that any assessment that is carred out is suitable and sufficient.
Where is suitable and sufficient explained?......... I would recommend that anyone involved in risk assessment reads the ACOP to MHSW Regs. It gives an excellent explanation and should help Nearlythere understand that a single match should not cause too much concern. Below is just a small extract from that ACOP.
"The risk assessment should identify the risks arising from or in connection with work. The level of detail in a risk assessment should be proportionate to the risk. Once the risks are assessed and taken into account, insignificant risks can usually be ignored, as can risks arising from routine activities associated with life in general, unless the work activity compounds or significantly alters those risks. The level of risk arising from the work activity should determine the degree of sophistication of the risk assessment."
It amazes me that many out there in the world of risk assessment, both enforcers and assessors have not read and in many cases are unaware of the existance of this document.
There is then of course further specialist guidance for each particular dangerous substance, and in the kind of premises where these substance may affect the general fire precautions I would expect to find a suitably competent person assisting the responsible person.
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One of the reasons I had asked was because of what is contained in the N.I Regs. For certification under FS(NI) Order 1984 there was a criteria for quantities of highly flammable or explosive material used or stored in, on, or under a factory premises. The F&R Service provided advice where if sufficient types and quantities of such materials were provided then certification, regardless of the number of employees, was required. This certificate was still only in relation to means of escape and basically the different lengths of stride and number required to get to a place of safety depending on the nature of the substance. The nature of the substance was left for the H&S Ex. to deal with.
The new Fire Safety regs seems to change that to include more specific Fire Service interest but it seems that it has left the assessment of the degree of risk provided by the Dangerous Substance to the RP. My thoughts were that maybe in other Services throughout the UK which have been using the FSO 2005 there may have been advice or guidance on the nature and quantities of such substances which would have constituted the substance to be considered Dangerous for the purposes of a FRA.
Hence my use of the match as a substance at the lower extremity of the Dangerous Scale and TNT at the other with a nervous pointer hovering somewhere between.
SCHEDULE Regulation 11 (4)
MEASURES TO BE TAKEN IN RESPECT OF DANGEROUS
SUBSTANCES
1. In applying measures to control risks the person with duties under Article 25 or 26 shall, in
order of priority–
(a) reduce the quantity of dangerous substances to a minimum;
(b) avoid or minimise the release of a dangerous substance;
(c) control the release of a dangerous substance at source;
(d) prevent the formation of an explosive atmosphere, including the application of
appropriate ventilation;
(e) ensure that any release of a dangerous substance which may give rise to risk is suitably
collected, safely contained, removed to a safe place, or otherwise rendered safe, as
appropriate;
(f) avoid–
(i) ignition sources including electrostatic discharges; and
(10) 1968 c.29 (N.I.) section 2(a) was substituted by S.I. 1989/1344 (N.I. 15)
(11) 1968 c.29 (N.I.) section 2(b) was amended by S.I. 1998/1504 (N.I. 9) Schedule 5 Paragraph 3(b)
(12) S.I. 1998/1504 (N.I. 9)
(ii) such other adverse conditions as could result in harmful physical effects from a
dangerous substance; and
(g) segregate incompatible dangerous substances.
2. The person with duties under Article 25 or 26 shall ensure that mitigation measures applied in
accordance with regulation 11(3)(b) include–
(a) reducing to a minimum the number of persons exposed;
(b) measures to avoid the propagation of fires or explosions;
(c) providing explosion pressure relief arrangements;
(d) providing explosion suppression equipment;
(e) providing plant which is constructed so as to withstand the pressure likely to be produced
by an explosion; and
(f) providing suitable personal protective equipment.
3. The person with duties under Article 25 or 26 shall–
(a) ensure that the relevant premises are designed, constructed, and maintained so as to
reduce risk;
(b) ensure that suitable special, technical and organisational measures are designed,
constructed, assembled, installed, provided and used so as to reduce risk
(c) ensure that special, technical and organisational measures are maintained in an efficient
state, in efficient working order and in good repair;
(d) ensure that equipment and protective systems meet the following requirements–
(i) where power failure can give rise to the spread of additional risk, equipment and
protective systems shall be able to be maintained in a safe state of operation
independently of the rest of the plant in the event of power failure;
(ii) means for manual override shall be possible, operated by employees competent to do
so, for shutting down equipment and protective systems incorporated within
automatic processes which deviate from the intended operating conditions, provided
that the provision or use of such means does not compromise safety;
(iii) on operation of emergency shutdown, accumulated energy shall be dissipated as
quickly and as safely as possible or isolated so that it no longer constitutes a hazard;
and
(iv) necessary measures shall be taken to prevent confusion between connecting devices;
(e) where the work is carried out in hazardous places or involves hazardous activities, ensure
that appropriate systems of work are applied including–
(i) the issuing of written instructions for the carrying out of work; and
(ii) a system of permits to work, with such permits being issued by a person with
responsibility for this function prior to the commencement of the work concerned.
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As I suspected Nearlythere the extract you have posted is largely a cut and paste from DSEAR.
Also English, Welsh & Scottish legislation previously had special premises regs. where certificates were required if specific quantities were used...but that was in the good\bad old days of prescription.
What is now required is dependent upon the risk...and there is plenty of guidance to assist those with responsibilities.
The fire service as enforcers are only interested in how these scarey chemicals impinge on the general fire precautions.
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As I suspected Nearlythere the extract you have posted is largely a cut and paste from DSEAR.
Also English, Welsh & Scottish legislation previously had special premises regs. where certificates were required if specific quantities were used...but that was in the good\bad old days of prescription.
What is now required is dependent upon the risk...and there is plenty of guidance to assist those with responsibilities.
The fire service as enforcers are only interested in how these scarey chemicals impinge on the general fire precautions.
Thanks PhilB