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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: colin todd on April 03, 2009, 01:07:53 AM
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For some time now something has been worrying me so I thought I would ask my friends, the Firenetters, whose advice I always respect and trust.
I have a medical problem (hopefully not fatal, so I hope to be around for a long time yet to continue to leap over high buildings, while catching the speeding bullets fired by misguided fire officers in my teeth). Well, not trusting the national 'elf, I have been paying a fortune to a private medical consultant. He seems a nice chap and I do not grudge him the money since he is ekeing out an NHS pension (though I wish he would take the trouble to read the Lancet just occasionally).
Anyway, I was surfing the Net one night, and bored of soft porn, I stumbled across the Sickpeople.Net website. I read the posts with interest. It seemed to me that a number of private medical consultants would go on Sickpeople.net as soon as the private patient was out of the door of the consulting room and ask all and sundry for a diagnosis and proposed treatment, while charging patients for the advice. Some were even cheeky enough to simply begin their postings with the words "The Patient......." and then describe the patient's symptoms on the assumption that everyone would know they were supposed to do his job for him.
Intrigued I scrolled through the postings and came to the following one:
"The Patient: Tall, slimming, good-natured, intelligent Scotsman, extremely good looking with a penchant for younger women........." Immediately of course I recognized myself, so I read on......
"The Symtoms: The patient complains of severe anal discomfort when dealing with many of the officers of the greatest fire brigade in .......London, while claiming to experience a warm glow when dealing with many other shire county and met brigades, and all eight brigades in another nearby neighbouring country."
The consultant went on to say that he was completely baffled but he could not tell the patient this, as he was charging the patient (me) lots of dosh, so the last thing he would want to do was refer the patient to someone who knew the answer. Apparently, he had asked everyone down the pub for advice, and a bricklayer had suggested he carry out a colonoscopy, but he was too mean to buy the BS on colonoscopies, so was asking everyone on Sickpatient.net what the standard said and whether the warm glow the patient experienced was born of euphoria or was simply heartburn.
Lots of people seemed to be giving the consultant willingly of their time and advice, even though he was then charging me for it, as though it were his own. Some of the advice seemed to come from eminent surgeons (but in brain surgery, rather than below the waist problems), some came from retired medical researchers, who said they thought they remembered a case like this around the time of world war 2, and some very helpful advice came from retired ambulance drivers and first aiders. Some of the advice seemed sound enough (like tell the patient to have a strong talisker and kick the cat after each meeting with a fire officer), while others suggested all sorts of bizarre surgery.
See, the thing is, should I be worried that he appears to be taking advice from all and sundry, about whom he knows nothing, and should he be charging me for this advice, which he had always purported was his own????
I noticed that some postings had long dialogues, in which consultants discussed the private matters of their patients in great detail. I also wondered about that..........
Then I noticed that, as I travel a lot, I had put out to tender a contract for advice on contraceptive arrangements in a number of UK countries. One consultant had told me that it would be very difficult and need a visit to some of the countries in question. However, I had decided to instead appoint a leading family planning organization to give me advice. (It was not the Family Planning Association, but to hide their real identity I am going to call them the the Family Planning Authority. They told me they could get the advice for me from their sister Family Planning Authorities in other countries, no problem. Imagine my outrage when I read on Sickpatient.net a posting from one of their consultants asking for help from all and sundry with ....... well I think you can guess. Turns out the guy had placed various postings on medical problems that the Authority were contracted to advise upon (without the knowledge of his management I suspect).
Well, worried about all of this I dug deeper into what Sickpatient.net was all about. It turns out it was the brianchild of a retired doctor, Simpson Collins, a real gem of a man, who had devoted a large chunk of his private time to making the site when he worked in the NHS to try to help medical people with information, etc. As the site grew, a benevolent consultant in private practice, full of amiration for Dr Collins, had paid out his own pocket for Dr Simpsons own server when the Doc's site became too big for the ISP.
In fairness, the site is still used by many NHS wallahs, some of whom need the help as they have never driven ambulances or been to RTCs, while some use the site as a form of anger management, venting their irritation with the private medical sector, all of which was within the vision of Dr Simpson (and his anonymous benefactor). However, it is also now apparently used a lot by private consutlants, who see patients and then, as I have said, ask everyone to make their diagnoses for them and virtually write the private prescription.
Of course, medics need to help each other to help the sick, but the advice I wanted was should I be concerned that this consultant I visit keeps telling all his pals in cyberspace about my medical problems in the hope that someone, the qualifications of whom he knows very little, might do his job so he can charge me lots of my hard earned and sparse earnings????????????????????????????????????????
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That made me smile.
"Good job that doesent happen in our industry" tong firmly in cheek ;D
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That made me smile. "Good job that doesent happen in our industry" tong firmly in cheek ;D
Thomas, if you had used your fingers to put the sausage in your mouth, you could have bitten a piece off [sausage] and used your tongue instead instead of getting your tong's stuck in your cheek :P
Anyways, should be good for a bar b at the weekend.
I don't know why Colin, that you would want to kick Cat, I felt she had been quite entertaining and helpful around the bar?
Have a good W/E all.
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I'm more interested in your medical problem CT. Have you tried a wire brush and domestos?
Perhaps this is the chance for a little diversification during those quiet moments when people are having trouble finding this site.
Welcome to the forum's new on line Medical Assessment service - www.Quacks-R-Us.com.
Don't suffer in silence. Tell us your medical problems and, when we have stopped laughing, we will trawl the site for solutions to help get you on your back again.
Dear Doctor Nearlythere.
Every time I drink a cup of tea I get a pain in my right eye. What can I do? Hilda.
Dear Hilda.
Try taking the spoon out of the cup before you start drinking.
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CT
Perhaps the Doctor is only a GP like most of us.(Or in my case a student)
Specialist problems need specialists to diagnose and offer a solution.
If you have a problem with your hose reel then Anthony B is your man ::)
Anyways, you should be glad the doctor knew he was out of his depth and took advice!
Surely thats what this site is all about :D
davo
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Dear Doctor Nearlythere.
Every time I drink a cup of tea I get a pain in my right eye. What can I do? Hilda.
Dear Hilda.
Try taking the spoon out of the cup before you start drinking.
Davo would never have this problem as being a true yorkshireman he slurps his tea from his saucer.
As for CT well He feigns a love for his cats, then inflicts gastric torture upon them by feeding them dry food whilst he enjoys a diet of chocolate biscuits and talisker, and now admits to giving them a good kicking every time a wise fire officer wont let him have a drive in the truck.
Just another thought- IMO this forum has gone into serious decline following last Octobers relaunch. I was initially attracted to it to replace the coffee table banter I used to enjoy whilst gainfully employed whilst keeping in touch with technical and more importantly political issues in the fire service. But then I became struck just how helpful it was as a forum for the end users who were bewildered by technical and enforcement based issues. Sadly following the relaunch nobody who is not already a member can find the site and so we have become very stagnant and introspective.
I cannot offer Toddy much advice in respect of his medical problem as I have little knowledge of the condition- indeed as a result of my stature it is many years since I have been able to see my own trinket set so cannot compare notes.
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Dear Doctor Nearlythere.
Every time I drink a cup of tea I get a pain in my right eye. What can I do? Hilda.
Dear Hilda.
Try taking the spoon out of the cup before you start drinking.
Davo would never have this problem as being a true yorkshireman he slurps his tea from his saucer.
As for CT well He feigns a love for his cats, then inflicts gastric torture upon them by feeding them dry food whilst he enjoys a diet of chocolate biscuits and talisker, and now admits to giving them a good kicking every time a wise fire officer wont let him have a drive in the truck.
Talisker in small amounts is one of my favourite tipples. It isn't for lager drinkers with tender taste buds as it is filtered through a bucket of turf to give it that mature peaty edge. The lack of chocolate in value pack chocolate biscuits can cause behavioural problems which can cause the sufferer to kick and flail. The cheaper the pack the more kicking and flailing.
Please clarify what he gives a good kicking K. The wise fire officer or the cats?
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I agree with Kurnal with regard to this site and where it is going. Thre seems to be a lot of banter between posters which spills over into many of the topics and detracts from the actual posts. There also seems to be a lot of baiting occurrring which is fine in the actual banter thread but seems to be and is deeply uninteresting to posters when looking for specific answers to questions raised or for those looking for information. I am happy to read and learn from the posters who offer advice and information and have learnt more than I knew from the information supplied by individuals with regard to specilaist information Perhaps the site can be changed so that it is more accessibl to others and the numbers of poters grows.
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Me thinks that there is a subliminal message in CT's post, as I am sure I recognise that doctor!
As for your worrying complaint "The Symtoms: The patient complains of severe anal discomfort when dealing with many of the officers of the greatest fire brigade in .......London, while claiming to experience a warm glow when dealing with many other shire county and met brigades, and all eight brigades in another nearby neighbouring country."
My advice is to prescribe taking regular doses of the M25, which will allow you to maintain contact with various shires when moving north or east from chez Todd, whilst avoiding all contact with the greatest city. (Be aware that caution should be exercised when consuming that part of the M25 near Heathrow T5 and near Enfield, as they are part of the 'great city').
Best wishes and get well soon
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Yes...I recognise that Dr Simpson Colllins too - he starred alongside Messy Shaw in The Professionals didnt he?
Lord McTodd as a fully qualified "First Aider at Work" certificate holder I am able to perform minor heart surgery with little more than a credit card, and selloptape.Im also qualified to diagnose several ailments such as the little known "Scurrey disease"
It affects several Scottish men like yourself aged between 73 and 85 living in the Surrey area. It is thought to be contracted from Talisker infected with Cat pea.
It makes the affecting person prone to telling affectionate and whimsical tales of his motherland, and spouting ADB and vengeful sarcasm at others for no apparent reason.
One severe side effect is that the sufferer has the unparralled temptation to double de clutch a vast array of vehicles (mainly public vehicles) such as buses, police cars,milk floats, road sweepers and golf buggies etc,.
My advice Sir Col is to stop kicking the cat, and it will stop peeing in your tallisker.
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Now we have all had a bit of fun over Colins most ingenious and amusing posting it may be good to debate the issue as I am sure Colin intended. Personally I cant see a reat deal wrong with using the forum in this way as a sounding board and seeking the opinion of peers. Or as part of a contract, they may even be required to seek comments from interested parties?
It is pretty clear that we have a huge range of expertise on here- some with a fantastic degree of specialist knowledge in a particular area, - and this is always apparent from their postings - and those who have a lot to learn.
Then we have the enforcers- and its always a good sounding board for their interpretation of something out of the ordinary- they often gives me a good indication of the best way to approach a particular issue when trying to sell an idea to their peers.
Personally I cannot see what is wrong with discussing someone's intimate painful fissure on the forum as long as I dont give any clue as to who the patient is. The fact that I am charging my clients is neither here or there. I come across something unusual and share my thoughts over it and invite other opinions it is giving the client the benefit of a more considered standpoint. Its give and take- I am often very grateful for the advice given and hope some of mine is useful to others. Whether I take any notice depends on who the poster is. Its very easy to assess the competence of others through the quality of their postings over a period. And where I am particularly grateful I will often send a personal message to pass on my thanks. And am always very pleased to receive them too.
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As I have recently turned from gamekeeper to poacher and am now working independently, I have lost the ability to argue, debate and discuss FS issues with peers over a coffee. I know that many self-employed posters here also work in a somewhat similar remote environment and do not have the advantages offered by working within a large team (eg: as in a fine capital city's FS Dept, or within a major fire consultancy's office).
It was for those reasons I began posting, and perhsp more importantly, reading/following the views of others here. As with all things internet, you cannot always believe what you read, but on those occasions when it's not so easy to see the wood for the trees, a simple post on this website often attracts a high quality answer which enables you to have a different perspective of a specific situation. I have met two regular posters and would trust their judgement (almost) without question.
I see no problem with the concept of using a forum such as this as a tool in your FS toolbox, as long as it's not the only (or most significant) tool in there!
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I have a lot of respect for Colin and have sat a course of his and read his books etc, however we all cannot be superhero's and I am sure along his way to being a god of fire protection he had advice from others, or had advice from collegues etc.
I use this forum as a lot do on here, as a sounding board.
I think it is great on here to put out a problem and see what comes back, a lot of the time my original thoughts are the correct ones. But sometimes if I list a problem someone will come back with a slightly different veiw or way of doing something which could be a better way of doing the same thing or a more cost effective way of doing it.
I feel and hope that I am fairly knowledgable with in the fields I work, However (and I think this is what sets some above others) is that if I am not sure of something I will always tell my clients that I am not sure but will find out the answer for them.
The day I start thinking I know everything and no longer need to keep learning and asking questions is the time to retire, before you make a massive mistake.
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Bang on Thomas. Your posting reminds me of two of my favourite quotes from the Batman TV series.
Robin "gee Batman is there nothing that you dont know?
Batman "No Robin I dont know everything. There are actually four things I dont know"
Robin " Gee Batman you never make a mistake"
Batman "No Robin I did make a mistake once. For a moment I thought I was wrong- then found out I was right all along"
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.......but what if the patient is not told that the consultant is going to, in effect, ask people down the pub for a diagnosis and is not simply double checking that his idea is right, cos he really has no ideas, but simply is incompetent to deal with the problem so throws it out to others to make his money for him, while then selling the ideas as his own. And what if, as I suggested, at tender stage it is alleged that the consultant has knowledge greater than others, wins the tender on that basis, and it then transpires the first thing he does is shout HELP can someone tell me the answer on Firenet, ooops I mean sickpeople.net of course, since as Tam says it would not happen in our profession.
That would be different from GP Davo simply trying to learn a bit about gastro-intestinal problems as part of his CPD would it not. And it would even be different from the angry old recently retired under-funded NHS GP who hates the private sector, but happily asks it for advice. Or for that matter surgeons in cottage hospitals who cant read surgery manuals very well, so angrily ask the specialists who wrote the manual why the first cut is the deepest. Or the ambulance driver who is still only doing first aid and sometimes just needs to know if there are new band aids around.
I think even the most eminent medical specialist would gladly help all of the above albeit that they are often ungrateful and behave like the sick cats I was taught to fix when I studied vet medicine at the finest vet med school in the whole of Edinburgh as a youth. One never really minded that they scratched and hissed because they were loveable little souls who were not bright enought to work out that you were trying to help them and they couldnt hurt you anyway.
How many of us would go to someone who was a painter and decorator, but set himself up as a medical specilist without even training as a GP, but has access to an Internet bulletin board for his answers. How many with a serious illness would trust a long since retired GP, who openly admits that the latest guides on the subject matter of your illness are no longer available to him as they were when he was in the nhs and are too dear to buy, but, hey, he can ask people down the pub if they have a copy and could tell him what it says.
And as for CPD? Whew, way too expensive to go to seminars and conferences and where do they have time to read up on all the latest bumph, when they are out there selling their knowledge from the NHS 10 years ago. After all, how much can medicine have changed since they did their medical qualification at Marsh Gas on Sea 30 years ago???
I think one would wish to get a potentially fatal illness sorted out by someone who is prepared to spend a small fortune on keeping up to date and paying for access to all relevant guidance (and may take the view why should those costs help fund other medics who dont want to bother). So, as Tam says, its just was well it cant happen in our profession, otherwise the safety of people to resort to buildings would not just be influenced by the fact that cutting fire stations would upset Matt the Wrack and the local press, and cutting CFS would be non-trendy, but cutting fire safety enforcement and the training of I/Os would never even be noticed (until it all goes wrong and then it would be fault of the RP anyway). It might paradoxically be influenced by well-meaning people supporting as best they can those who want to earn dosh from the knowledge of others.
Just a thought.
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I know its off topic, but for avoidance of doubt, no cats were harmed in the making of this hypothetical scenario, and, contrary to lay opinion, balanced dry food costing £3 a pound is an extremely well balanced and sufficient diet for cats, so long as they have constant access to water, while wet food rots their teeth.
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I think your frustration is misplaced Colin. If you had approached a retired NHS ambulance driver directly you would have known exactly the level of service he was likely to offer. You instead approached a large Organisation of National Standing which did not live up to your expectations because it perhaps misrepresented itself by employing the same retired NHS ambulance driver that you would have spurned, but charged a handsome fee for the privilege. In justifying their business strategy they would say that once per year they will ensure all their associate staff are shown how to fit a contraceptive device, but in fact the trainer does not really understand the importance of fitting the device the right way out. I could give a number of examples similar to your own in other industries - there are a number of organisations of considerable standing that on analysis and examination are all front and little substance.
But I have little sympathy with you on this occasion. It is not like fire safety after all - in the case you describe there is no specific duty other than contract law and Caveat Emptor applies. (If you had taken my advice before awarding the contract for family planning services I could have forwarned you - I have a crystal ball and can see it coming.)
So please dont use this experience to knock the retired ambulance driver for not doing his CPD. And is certainly not a reason to justify compulsory third party accreditation for the small fry practitioner. But it does expose the family planning industy for what it is. Thank goodness it is not fire safety we are talking about.
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I know its off topic, but for avoidance of doubt, no cats were harmed in the making of this hypothetical scenario, and, contrary to lay opinion, balanced dry food costing £3 a pound is an extremely well balanced and sufficient diet for cats, so long as they have constant access to water, while wet food rots their teeth.
Bur doesn't talisker rot the liver? Water is wholesome and healthy. You cant have freedom without choice. Sorry- promise its the last off topic post from me.
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Colin
Not sure where I fit in to your scenario
We have Tech Indexes at vast cost so I have access to the BSs
However, as I struggle to get my head around them I have persuaded my boss to get a learned gent in to do our difficult premises
davo
(half agreeing but not of course in relation to the obvious brains on here ;D)
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Davo as a government user the vast cost for your large organisation is likely to be a fraction of what the tech indexes charge the private sector- even at a single user licence level. I find the only way is to subscribe to the BSI to gain the discount and even then you have to be selective, buy what you need and no more. Thats when it gets really frustrating when the new version of the BS has very few significant changes from the previous version.
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Jokar
Do you not agree a little bit of banter keeps the guests (soon to be newbies) interested ???
davo
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Jokar
Do you not agree a little bit of banter keeps the guests (soon to be newbies) interested ???
davo
Davo this is not banter, CT is making a serious point but he has to hide behind an analogy because he must find it difficult to talk straight and if he named anybody they would have the right of reply providing he lists all his concerns that person would surely reply in no uncertain terms.
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TW
I am fully aware of CTs frustrations, I was however aiming specifically at Jokar's comments.
Yes I have noticed the phenominon, indeed have met a couple of them but the smell of BS gave them away.
I just think the same problem exists in all walks of life
davo, glass half empty. :(
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Tell me who is qualified enough, what qualification do they need, are we saying that you should never seek any advice at all because you should know everything.
Does passing an entrance exam for the IFE or being on someones fire risk assessors register, being a BAFE company etc etc.
I have recently been installing a fire alarm where I saw a fire risk assessment from an retired cheif fire officer with 25-30 years experience (FIFireE grade) having his risk assessement being rejected for being not suitable and sufficient, and to be fair it was very poor indeed he was even quoting BS5839-1-1988. The part I was involved with was the fire alarm where he had said six manual call points in the building would be suitable. This is a building that has conference and dinning facilities for 450 people, two seperate bars, a massive kitchen facility, two seperate cellar areas (opposite ends of the building), upstairs office suite and a loft space that you could play a 5 a side football match in. Now on paper he should be great for doing this risk assessment.
So back to my question who is a competent person because on paper the man above would be, got the qualifications, experience, but was very poor indeed.
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QED Tam. Thank you for so eloquently making my point for me. The ra was done by a retired GP who had not done any CPD so did not even know the BS was revised in 2002. It is a special form of arrogance born out of believing ones own press too much as a Chief Officer and thinking that being a politician and being nice to local councillors gives you engineering capability.
Although he is old and past his prime, I dont mind peeps like the kurnal, as, by recognizing his own limitations, he is, by definition, competent. I have problems with people who take punters' dosh and sell them bull**** plus the hope someone will tell them the answer.
For avoidance of doubt tw, those medics know who they are and there is no need for me to embarrass them, particularly those who actually do some good works handing out contraceptives to the needy, amongst whom I have some good friends of long standing. Sadly, they trade sometimes on giving the impression that they have the sole store of the worlds contraceptives.
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Colin I can appreciate where you are coming from and in some cases you are correct. Alas I can't help feel you are being a little sceptical. I can't help feel you are talking about an indivdual, or organisation that has won a tender you were hoping for Colin rather than a generic problem in the industry. I'm not saying you are being bitter and you point is probably true in the case you speak of.
But for every bad risk assessor you come across there are ten good ones just trying to earn a decent living. The problems you talk about occur in every trade and industry and have done so since time immemorium. You say that by definition knowing your limits actually makes you competent. So very very true. Yet converseley there will be times we encounter a situation that is foreign to us, that can often be resolved by a paragraph or sentence from someone here that makes the penny drop and allows you to comepetently deal with the scenario.
I think firenet is a great forum. Its free, we have a good mix of people here, we know who are worth listening to and who aren't. I think we know who has hidden agendas, and those who are genuine. If someone thinks they know it all then they are grossly mistaken, but you should never stop asking questions as that all forms part of ongoing maintenance of knowledge and current standards, and learning new things.
As for banter being a problem I dont think its an issue. I have been on these forums a long long time. I only recently registered as a member but have logged on as a guest since 2006. There has always been banter, and its never put me or others of,. The latest dip in membership or hits to the site has been down i think to the new site not being listed in google searches.
Finally regarding the quality of posts. Kurnal says you can drum up a good idea of a persons competence by the quality of posts. Initially I agree but dont forget over the t'internet its not always that simple to judge the tone or interpretation something is meant in or how the poster sees the problem or question put forward. I have been guilty of that in the past. Rather than label people, or indeed pidgeon hole them I think we ought to recognise that people will have different opinions and often there are several ways of a chieving a solution with or without official guides or standards.
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Clevey, No you have missed my thrust, although I am gald to see we are broadly agreed. It is not specifically to do with a tender-that was ages ago. But now take a scroll through the last years posts. Some, as the kurnal said only want to bounce their ideas off people. For one man band thats invaluable. The concern I have is with those that have no ideas, but have taken a job on with no idea how to solve it and then go into reams on detail hoping others will give of their time and expertise to give them the answer. One particular individual had been doing so for ages without the knowledge of his bosses (who were concerned when it was brought to their attention). But he is one of several.
Solving serious fire safety issues by the Internet is positively dangerous, aside from the liability it can create for those who provide the solutions. Old Codgers who actually are quite capable getting help with their cpd or bouncing ideas of chums to make sure they are not getting isolated by working alone is a whole different ball game than getting your whole job done by others.
That was my point. Take it for whats its worth and discard it by all means.
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Unfortunatly Colin, this will carry on until the whole fire protection has some sort of legislation for fire risk assessors, Alarm installer, etc etc.
I personally I would love laws and regulations coming in that state you must have XY & Z to do a particular job or task, as we all would know what is required.
One of my current disapointments is the lack of any actual guidance for who is competent to install, maintain and commission a fire Alarm & detection system.
Currently we have a very wooley description Quote "3.11"
competent person
person with the necessary training and experience, and with access to the requisite tools, equipment and
information, and capable of carrying out a defined task..
That could mean nearly anything, a for instants is that a NICEIC electricians fire alarm training involves half a day (and this half day includes emergency lighting) does that make them competent?.
I would like to see something more like AnnexE from BS5306
Annex E (informative)
Training of Competent Persons
The competent person’s training should include “on the job” experience and attendance of a training course run by a recognised body, which may be the extinguisher supplier or a qualified company. The competent person should attend for the length of time recommended by the training institution and, at the end of the course, pass an examination supervised by an independent body
There are three such independent examination bodies recognised by British Approvals for Fire Equipment: The British Fire Consortium (BFC), The Fire Extinguisher Trades Association (FETA) and the Independent Fire Engineering and Distributors Association (IFEDA)
The competent person should attend a refresher course at least every 3 years, which satisfies the following criteria.
a) Minimum duration one day
b) Covers new requirements, new classes of fires and new products in the market place, such as:
1) British Standards
2) Relevant UK statutory regulations
3) Basic services
4) Extended services
5) Recharging
6) Overhauling
c) Concludes with a written test of understanding for the competent person.
If there were set guidance of what is competent in all the different fields it would ensure safety for the customer and a more level playing field.
Lets face it how on earth can any of us possibly state that the building you are risk assessing has a suitable an sufficiant fire alarm system if we have people installing systems with half a days training or less!
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Although he is old and past his prime, I dont mind peeps like the kurnal, as, by recognizing his own limitations, he is, by definition, competent. I have problems with people who take punters' dosh and sell them bull**** plus the hope someone will tell them the answer.
Colin I am underwhelmed by your uncharacteristic generousity of spirit. I must agree that I am getting past my prime now and would benefit from your advice, from your wide experience, of which anti aging preparations you have tried, so I know which ones dont work.
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Davo,
Yes I do but there is a time and a place for it. Some of the posters on here and those whop wish to pick up information like to read through a thread to find all the detail. Sometimes, it all goes a bit woolly and the track gets lost and perhaps the whole thing then becomes a little pointless.
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Clevey, No you have missed my thrust, although I am gald to see we are broadly agreed. It is not specifically to do with a tender-that was ages ago. But now take a scroll through the last years posts. Some, as the kurnal said only want to bounce their ideas off people. For one man band thats invaluable. The concern I have is with those that have no ideas, but have taken a job on with no idea how to solve it and then go into reams on detail hoping others will give of their time and expertise to give them the answer. One particular individual had been doing so for ages without the knowledge of his bosses (who were concerned when it was brought to their attention). But he is one of several.
Solving serious fire safety issues by the Internet is positively dangerous, aside from the liability it can create for those who provide the solutions. Old Codgers who actually are quite capable getting help with their cpd or bouncing ideas of chums to make sure they are not getting isolated by working alone is a whole different ball game than getting your whole job done by others.
That was my point. Take it for whats its worth and discard it by all means.
Colin. Fair enough I take your point. There is a huge difference between someone seeking confirmation of their ideas and logic than someone simply knowing nothing and lazily seeking the opinion of true professionals
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TW I am fully aware of CTs frustrations, I was however aiming specifically at Jokar's comments.
I was not suggesting for a moment you were not fully aware of CT’s frustrations it was the writting style, a mixture of analogies and banter which made it difficult to understand the serious point of the posting. It also made it difficult to determine who was being attacked so they could reply and justify their position. CT assures us that those involved, know who they are, but I am still not sure, I certainly tick some of the many boxes and I suspect so does others then are we all involved?
I agree with Jokar banter is fine but only when it doesn’t detract from the point of the message.
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TW
Apologies if I was not clear. I suspect the banter is there because we are unsure how to tread.
CT does make a serious point, it can be spotted just as he says.
Does it include you? Definitely not. You are clearly one of the good guys ;D
davo
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I have seen the forum Colin is talking about, and I have seen people who must only be just about qualified as first aiders who seem to be asking questions about open heart surgery. I have also seen qualified surgeons asking questions that a first aider could answer.
That being said, many times it is clear that the person is qualified, and a second opinion of the treatment required is all they are after. Open heart surgery can be complicated, and often there will be many ways to do something, and it is clearly beneficial to the client to be given the best option, which may have eluded the original consultant.
You also get people who have been told they need an operation, and come here to find excuses of how to avoid that operation.
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Most people use the firenet forums for legitimate reasons. Sometimes it is just to satisfy a hunch, or garner opinion on certain scenarios or issues, other members use it to increase knowledge and understanding of the field. I see absolutely no problem with that.
I like to use the forums because it is good to get the views of people from other areas within the industry, assessors and consultants in particular. I also see how it would benefit "one man bands" or people who don't have access to the exchange of views and opinions over the coffee table as I do.
I'm not sure who Colin is referring to, and Im not particularly interested. But I think we need to bear in mind that whilst there are incompetent people either maliciously or otherwise fleecing clients, without the relevant experience or knowledge to do a particular job, members should not be discouraged from asking questions even if they perhaps appear daft questions.
We all had to start somewhere, these forums have enriched my knowledge greatly. It is a great tool, and what's more it's free and open to anyone and everyone.
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I just think it is nice for him not to be having a go at the fire service for once. Shows more of a balanced approach, a bit like Roy Chubby Brown, he is not racist - he hates everyone equally.
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Davo it’s obvious you haven’t worked with me, Colin’s medical problem seems to come to mind ;)
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Sounds like piles ......... ;D
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TW
Better to be an honest pain in the ar*e than shamelessly earning piles from other peoples knowhow ;D
Many years ago when I first started out in H & S, a wise H & S professional advised me to know my limitations. This still holds today. I can swim but I never go out of my depth :P
davo
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I'd rather someone asked a question than assume an answer (the only stupid question is one that isn't asked) but there does come a point where the bleedin' obvious should be known.
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Whilst we are looking at this subject.
What about the the chief surgen generals officers, they come down and assess the health of a person and then often force the person into having a major very costly operation done, when all that was needed was a little tweek off his left nipple.
So who is worse the surgen who is not so skilled asking for advice because he knows hes out his depth or the the big cheese at the surgen generals office who does his inspection and then just gets it wrong asks no advice but forces the big operation on the poor man.
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The person who is asking for advice should leave my nipples alone until he knows about nipples.
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Is it right that people put scenarios on that they are being paid for, use the reponse from other people and then claim the dosh and credit. Its not just the answer you need but the background to where that answer came from.
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Yes they may claim the dosh and the credit but they also cop the blame if it goes wrong. I can imagine the fun the lawyers would have if someone claimed it wasn't their fault because they got the information off a bulletin board.
At the end of the day it is the "consultant" who takes the money who must take the risk. Even the wisest sage from the forum (or even Mr Todd) cannot give a definitive answer from a description on the board all they can do is say that the situation sounds like it should have this answer. All our debates only really give is hypothetical answers unless we actually visit the sites and see the documentation.
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...but case law suggests I believe that you do not need to be paid to have liability for advice you give. Free advice given on a forum carries with it a liability based on a duty of care. So, yes lawyers could have great fun if it all goes wrong.
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Yes it sounds like field day time for lawyers. I would agree that you may be liable for the advice you give even if you do not charge for it but I suspect it would be for direct advice. i.e. if you answered a question like would it be ok to extent the escape distance in a dead end situation to 1/2 mile and said it would be fine. That is one thing, however if someone took that advice and passed it on to someone else whilst claiming to be a competent person then the liability should fall on them.
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Returning to the original point of this thread, I agree with Mr Todd. Asking for help every now & again is fine by me, we all come across something unusual from time to time. However wanting to know every thing to actually do your job is never a correct state of affairs.
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Where you get conflicting viewpoints that go against what you consider correct then surely it's better to get full clarification,even if you know for a fact that you are right?
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Buzzy, Germans and Swiss are never wrong, so just do as your masters say. Incidentally, they say you should buy me Bushmills in Benedicts this week.
That Stevo seems like a sensible chap AND he called me Mr Todd. Nobody has called me Mr Todd, not even the office cleaners, since I was last stopped for speeding by the police.