FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Community Fire Safety => Topic started by: colin todd on April 17, 2005, 05:14:51 PM
-
The latest 2003 statistics show an increase in domestic fire deaths for the first time in a long time. Are there any official theories as to why this increase has occurred contrary to the trend over the past 15 years or so?
-
This is in no way scientific or related to any work done on the subject but it would be interesting to know whether their was any disproportianate increase in the number of drink related fire deaths. If so could it be the case that the increase in fire deaths might be aligned to the apparent increase in our alcohol consumption (as a nation).
-
More likely its just a statistical Blip. I saw a draft stats monitor the other day which was showing that the trend is still slightly downward.
-
Noted that Irish figures were up and the smoking ban in public places being pointed at as cause ie now more drink & smoke at home than before.
-
That's what I was hoping Wee B. It would be worrying otherwise, but is there any possibility that failure to keep smoke alarms operational could be a contributory factor. If so, that would be really worrying.
-
When does a blip become a trend.
-
The latest fire stats published by ODPM on 14 April shows that the number of fatal casualities in accidental dwelling fires for the year ending 30/9/04 was 351 compared to 396 for the year ending 30/9/03. You can download the fire statistics monitor from the ODPM website at:
www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_fire/documents/page/odpm_fire_037257.hcsp
-
The you go - a blip!
The difference between a blip and a trend is mainly in the eye of the beholder but basicly you need to get a feel for how the figures change over time.
Statistics always need to be looked at in context. Given that around 40% of road accidents invlove alchohol then it follows that the way to save lives is to take a wee dram before starting your journey (as 60% of accidents involve sober people!!!) - Its a dumb example but you see what I mean.
Colin - As you know there a significant proportion of casualties who probably would have survived for the want of a 9 volt battery. But its not possible from the stats to spot if the older alarms are begining to lose sensitivity.
Its on my list of things that need researching - a very long list.
-
The US NFPA have a leaflet on why 10 years should be max life span on smoke alarms. I can e mail if of interest.
UK stats indicate that UK housing stock with an alarm, approx 11% have hard wired alarms. {This primarily driven by New Buid Regs & socila housing retrofit projects}.
In respect of UK fire stats there's no stats to tell if alarm is mains or battery in a fire incident, but mains alarms will not be dependent on the battery to function, so long as mains power present of course
-
Gel
BVPI 209 has just been introduced to measure the %age of fires attended in dwellings where:
(i) a smoke alarm had activated;
(ii) a smoke alarm was fitted but did not operate;
(iii) no smoke alarm was fitted
This doesn't differentiate between the method of powering the alarm, however this information is collected on the FDR1 - along with all the info needed to inform the BVPI.
-
Thanks; so the method of power to alarm is recorded then on FDR1 then, but not gathered within stats?
-
Do any of the forms stipulate the age of the property?
-
Gel
The method of powering the alrm is recorded on FDR1 and can be found in the stats database that researchers use. The published stats that you can pick up from the ODPM website are only summaries of a much more complex database.
Theres still a lot more info needed thatn we get from FDR1s and I am told that the plan to update them is making progress.
One of the new questions we would like added to the list is approximate age of the property.
-
Gel
As Wee brian says, information on the type of smoke alarm (mains or battery powered) is currently recorded on the FDR1. Analysis of this data is available in the published annual 'Fire Statistics, United Kingdom, 2003', chapter 2, table 2.5. This publication is available at the link below:
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_control/documents/contentservertemplate/odpm_index.hcst?n=4844&l=3
-
Thanks Princess; are u now a relative of Camilla I wonder!!
-
Thanks Princess-very comforting, although I assume that the actual figures you quote are for some obscure countries known as England and Wales, as the stats for UK seem to be 447 down to 405. Either way, it has gone back down, and perhaps we can breathe a sigh of relief and accept Wee B's blip theory.
-
Colin
You are quite right - apologies to the rest of the UK
Gel
Relatively speaking - no!
-
mmmm
government statistics - wonder what the definition is of a 'domestic fire death'?
mr b starts a further discussion on what should be classed as a 'fire death'??
-
You should know Davie, its your members (we don't talk about the non-members do we?) that fill up the FDR1s.
-
of course we talk about non members - we actually represent them as the 'employees representatives on the njc' - often a forgotten point! even though some other organisations are stamping their feet re numbers needed for places on the njc!
as for the definition col - not sure the fdr1 delivers - the point im making is that definitions are often changed to produce different outcomes statistically - remember the definition of unemployed being changed a few years ago - and lo and behold the govt had reached their targets. perhaps the defintion of a fire death will change to meet govt targets? any bets?
anyway, nice to hear from you again col, nice ad in fire - i would have thought peeps would have been clamouring to join such a well run organisation such as yours !!!
-
Oh Davey, you are such a cynic. I realize the shortcomings of the FDR1, but its the best we have, and these nice stats people at the ODPM are not part of a capitalist plot I am sure. (But you are keeping an eye on the man at the lampost still aren't you? If he comes to take you away, just mention my name. It won't do you any good but it might save me if he knows our politics are diametrically opposed.) With regard to our recruitment, a new chap started last Monday. (After I had done the old McCarthy bit about are you now or have you ever been a friend of Davey or did you ever drink beer and sandwiches with Harold Wilson.) We have also made an offer to another chap. But as you know many are called but few are chosen. Trust all is well with you and that your struggle for the proletariat is going well.
-
Dave
As I'm sure you know fatal casualities from fires are recorded on the FDR1 and then at the end of the year these figures are reconciled with the death certificates to ensure the cause of death was due to the fire.
-
I've posted a question in the "operational" forum about the accuracy of FDR1s. Would be good to get some opinions in there.
-
thanks princess - i didnt know the bit about death certs - with due respect i will need to get confirmation before i add this to my growing number of things i know!! LOL
thanks again, dave bev
mr todd, (of todd empire) - i am pleased to see that you are indeed reducing the number of unemployed people - i also assume you are now convinced that full employment is the future - and not at levels below the minimum wage (and it is only a minimum) - can i also remind you that you cant take it with you when you pass to the not so great place for all capitalist pigs (some exceptions of course ;-))
good idea mr h!
-
Dave
If you go to Note 8 Page 108 of the latest fire stats it explains how the fire death figures are arrived at:
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_fire/documents/page/odpm_fire_037257.hcsp
-
thanks princess, i was aware of those figures and info
-
Davey, If the place you mean is Heaven (which would be no good to a Unionite, as there is no beer and sandwiches-oh but John didn't give you any though, did he), you are clearly not acquainted with the case of the engineer who died. he went up to Heaven, where, at the pearly gates, he was met by St Peter, who, alas, could not find his name on the list. The engineer protested vigorously. But I am an engineer he said. We all go to Heaven. It was to no avail. He was sent down below. Well, a few months later God was having a pint in the Old Hell and Damnation with the Devil. You should come and visit us, said the Devil. We have such a nice environment now. We have air con, climatic control and thermostats on the burners. God raised one eyebrow quizically. We have an engineer explained the Devil. First ever to make it to Hell. An engineer!!!!!!! roared God. An engineer!!!!! He belongs in Heaven. Give him back immediately. No way, said the Devil. Who would maintain the clobber he has just installed. Give him back!!!!!! roared God again or or or or or..... Or what, jeered the Devil. Or I'll sue you spluttered God. Sue me, laughed the Devil? Sue me??????? And when the heck do you think you would ever find a lawyer in Heaven?
-
mr todd, is the engineer a member of a trade union, as it seems to me as though he needs some assistance in representation, especially as it seems that St peter didnt follow the company pollicy on recruitment/point of entry selection testing.
he also appears to being exploited by the man in red, a sure sign that a workers alliance would be of benefit to both the individual and the employee group. perhaps it is that no trade unionists ever go to see the man in red and always end up in sandwich and beer heaven that such improvements to the red society only just seem to be occuring, after all with all the capitalist pigs there, who is actually doing any work? who is there to exploit?
dave bev
wee b - the documents are out for consultation i understand (re new fdr1's)
-
Davey, In the unlikely event that you ever reach the said Gates ( and I trully hope it will not be for a long time anyway, though should it happen any sooner I will be there at the crem singing the Red Flag with the best of them), mention to Pete (He and I are on first name terms) that I once said you were the only card carrying TUC-type wallah I have ever met who has a sense of humour. It won't get you in, but it will amuse Pete. Incidentally, on a point of order Mr Chairman (pauses dramatically to slurp some more brown ale, during the so-called engineers'strike, there were no engineers on strike, but merely manual workers in the engineering industry.
-
Dave and wee b
Deatils of the consultation exercise which ends on 30/5/05 can be found at:
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_control/documents/contentservertemplate/odpm_index.hcst?n=6593&l=2
-
Thanks Princess
-
I had a chat with a member of a FRS a long way away from my domicile. This FRS send a fast respose to incidents within there area to provide a risk assesment which includes the road conditions and an assesment of the incident to be tackled. The aim is to get the right balance of fire crew's on scene in the most expediant time. This FRS belive that, if they have not made an effective intervention on a house within 20 minutes they will lose the structure, be it a single house or pair of semi's. This is a modern house with all of the additional insulation required by varous sections of the Building Regulations. This seems to ring true as each day I pass a pair of modern semi's out in the country that are severly damaged by fire. The fire in one took out both.