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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: boroboy on April 25, 2005, 01:53:18 PM
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My local conatct informs me that the powers that be in my local brigade are saying that the above guide is no longer available in print and that persons enquiring are being redirected to PAS 79. Any one know if this is true in other Brigades?
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Its still in print Boroboy and I'm not sure where they got the idea it wasnt. We've not issued any guidance on this matter either way.
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Mark,
Off topic I know.
Did the RRO get through in the washup before parliament rose or is it going to have to go back for 'rubber stamping' by the new parliament?
I know that it has all party support but if it didn't make it through I just have this horrible feeling that something else will crop up to delay it. God I am fed up with planning its implementation.
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It hasnt been lost - it has been approved by the Committees but just has to go through the vote procedure following the election, which should be painless. Other than that nothing has changed.
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Boroboy,
In my opinion the PAS 79 is a poor replacement for the Employers Guide (EG) and if any powers to be are directing people down that route, then I can only assume that they haven’t read them both.
The only advantage that the PAS has over the EG is that it contains a template for a FRA, (a FRA which, by the way, has been doing the rounds for some years now). The EG leaves the PAS standing in every other area, its information is much more in depth, it is user friendly and gives the layman confidence when carrying out a FRA.
The PAS 79 is advertised as ‘ground breaking’. The only thing that broke the ground when I read it was my jaw hitting the floor when I realised that I had just wasted £104.
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My understanding is that the delay in implementation of the RRO is due to the delay in producing the necessary guidance documents. They would have been ready if the ODPM had not 'sacked' a team of competent fire service professionals, because the early drafts were deemed 'too prescriptive'. Now this task has been hived off to another department using private consultants, and we await with bated breath their products....Will they be able to 'dumb down' the very standards that have been succesful in saving countless lives; in place because people died in tragic fires?
Actually, my own view is that the government know they have gone too far with their modernisation programme (or enforced cultural change, mainly for change's sake), and they are watching what happens as the British Fire Service goes into meltdown! Frankly, most Brigades are not enforcing the Workplace Regulations effectively - so how can they be expected to enforce the RRO? Well, allowing HMFSI to wither on the vine is most unhelpful, especially when many Brigades are cutting back on their enforcement capabilities through cuts, sorry, IRMP. I really do despair...and I certainly would not be proud to work for the department that has presided over this sorry mess!
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Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments and observations on this subject!!
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No sure whether the 'Employer's Guide' is still available in print, but it's free on the web at... www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/fire/index.htm
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Dave ( or would you care to have me use your REAL name), feel free to criticise all you wish, but stick to facts. The template has never ever been in the public domain.
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Yes, I am the one who thinks that the EG is crap, that the authors have never actually carried out a fire risk assessment in their life, and that even civil servants should always use their real names.
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The employers guide was established to be the be all and end all for the employer. A simple guide whereby the employer can do his/her risk assessment without calling in an "expert". To compare PAS 79 with the EG is like comparing a Haynes workshop manual with Autocar magazine. One is comprehensive and the other is entertaining but not detailed enough. Critics should ask themselves why the EG is free on the web whilst PAS 79 costs £99. The cost of an document generally reflects the amount of research that has been done to produce it. and of course the competency of the author/s.
At the end of the day FRA still need a competent person to carry them out.
I will be glad when the FP Act is phased out so that some of the serving fire officers or retired fire officers who are now FR Assessors might make some decisions based on risk and not on what is detailed on a Fire Certificate. Now there is a novel idea.
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Yo Brian, you are back (and with a bang too)!!!! Good to see you again. Love the analogy. Who is this man Haynes though. Didn't he used to be on TV with Nicholas Parsons? You will be hearing from Autocar's solicitors for comparing their glossy mag with the useless stuff in the EG, like listen carefully children, what we need to do is to separate the ignition sources from the combustible materials. DUH! I believe the new guides will be more scientific though as a draft I saw says we could also avoid oxygen. Sometimes when I read that stuff I lose the will to breathe oxygen anyway. With regard to competence, I have another analogy for you. There are those like my teenage son (bless him) who is always great at giving advice as to how to drive but, when I took him to put oil in his car, he wanted to pour it down the wee hole where the dipstick goes. Then there is Brunel.
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Yes, I am the one who has the balls to use his own name instead of pretending to be a shed load of other people.
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Thanks Colin. The name of the manual may be wrong but it is the content that is important. A bit like a risk assessment really. If you write Fire Risk assessment on the cover you have to make sure the building was suitably and sufficiently assessed. Now there are two words that people who religously follow the EG may like to discuss, if they understand them of course.Light blue touch paper and stand clear.
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I am another one that uses their real name.
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i use the name i was given, i had no choice in the matter! should i now change my name to something more suitable no-one will know me any more. names are merely a capitalist ploy (i wont go into religion at this point) to make the working classes recognise their place in society as seen from their perspective.
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There Colin, I told you. They obviously do not understand. I am also confused. Is Dave H the same as Dave Bev? Now what was the subject? Ah yes the E.G. Would anyone like to continue?
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Nah Davey (dave bev) is Ok really. And he does exist. I have even partaken of lunch with him. He is just a poor misguided soul who works for the FBU, but is otherwise sane, honest and unlike most card carriers a good laugh. Personally, I think it is good of him to give up his time here, when there is a commie revolution to plan. Personally, I ignore guests with all sorts of names. Sometimes they are sad individuals with some axe to grind but are devoid of the balls to say who they are or are employees of departments like the ODPM who choose to pretend to be all sorts of people like private sector employees (which I presume that is an unfulfilled aspiration they have or something) or both. There are of course exceptions. Now you are back you will catch on. It isn't difficult.
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Colin
Just because I feel that I have wasted £104 on the PAS, doesn’t mean that I am a civil servant. In fact I don’t think that there will be many civil servants who would spend their hard earned cash on purchasing one. By all means if you want to reveal my name then feel free to do so.
You asked me to stick to the facts, well I have. The example FRA in the PAS has been in use for quite a few years now, so I wouldn’t exactly call it ground breaking. Here’s another couple of facts, the PAS dedicates less than 1 page to Means of Escape, whilst the EG dedicates around 20 pages to the same subject. The PAS does not contain an example of a line drawing plan, where as the EG does.
As I stated earlier, ‘in my opinion’ the EG is a better document to assist the layman in carrying out a FRA.
You may come back and say that the PAS isn’t aimed at the layman, if this is the case then who is it aimed at?
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I didnt say you were. Its poor mark who isnt sure if he is a civil servant or a small businessman. The sample FRA has never been in the public domain (watch my lips) and it was modified in accordance with comments from stakeholders so by definition it cant be equivalent to anything else. In any case it is only a sample, as it is in an informative annex not a normative annex. Anyone reading the employers guide alone cannot define a suitable format for a FRA-many try, and a substantial proportion fail. You would not expect a guide to FRA to discuss the principles of means of escape from scratch-the PAS points out it is too big a subject and it isnt a fire safety guide. One reason that there is only a page is that the page to which you refer then directs the readoer to an annex on the subject. There is no requirement for a line drawing on a FRA -that is a different animal. The PAS states that it not aimed at the layman, so if you had read it I would not need to come back to tell you that. It is aimed at the multitudes, including fire officers and those carrying out fire risk assessments for a living , who have difficulty in knowing how a FRA should be structured.
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Just to dig out an old thorn in the side.
I have read through the PAS 79 and feel it is good. I think a lot of the guidance and inforamtion in there is simple enough for any self respecting fire safety professional to understand.
I do however feel that the guidance is based on a lot of inforamtion that is already out there, under 5588 / 7974 , Part B etc. But to put it all together and have some direction is what the industy needed. if nothing else to weed out the numbers of companies out there that sell fire extinguishers and signage, but are now offering fire risk assessments in order to 'recommend' their products.
I have read the EG, but to be honest, if I tried to use this as guidance for a FRA, where would you start, theres nothing on ASET's when dealing outside the travel distances set out in PArt B. It is as many say a lay persons guide to fire safety, and is very general. Nothing on Human Factors, I should make a list.
As was discussed earlier (around 3 months ago), if the employers guid has 20 pages to discuss and the PAS 1, the guidance is simple, PAS 79 is a methodology, not a Fire Safety Manual. After all you couldn't buy an all singing, all encompassing fire safty manual for £99. Just look how much the BS's are for example. £1400 a year I pay. £99 fo a guide in using this is a fair price I would say.
It is about time this sort of guidance was available!! keep the sharks out!!
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Colin, I wouldn’t want you to think that I am having a go at this document for the sake of it; and I fully understand your stance as I appreciate that a lot of hard work will have gone into compiling it.
The original question was basically, who is it aimed at. You (and the document) states that it is not aimed at the layman, which means that it must be aimed at the Fire Safety Professional. This is contradicted by the latest BSI catalogue which states that it will enable employers (the layman) to carry out a suitable and sufficient FRA.
I still maintain that I am disappointed by the document, as there is nothing new in it for me and it certainly isn’t ‘ground breaking’. Furthermore, I also think that if any ‘Fire Safety Professionals’ out there would have to refer to the PAS to carry out a suitable FRA; then they are in the wrong job.
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Well then the world is peppered with fire safety professionals who are in the wrong job. The PAS is supported by the IFE. The reason is that it is an official and accurate publicly available fact that 40% (yes 40%) of people who apply to the IFE for registration on the register of fire risk assessors are rejected when their fire risk assessments are studied by the review group. It was the opinion of the Institution that advice on a suitable structure for an FRA was NOT available anywhere ( including the EG) and that a PAS would assist. Thats one of many reasons we wrote it. As for the EG, we have now delivered 34 FRA training courses for fire authority personnel, the vast majority of these being in-house for fire brigades because the I/Os have no benchmark as to what is suitable and sufficient. The PAS helps them too, bearing in mind it is based on the course we provide. It can also help the informed employer who is not exacly a LAYMAN. Or he sure as hell shouldnt be if the RRO is to have any hope of success.
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However, since David you are so superior to all others in the profession why dont you send your copy to me and Ill arrange for BSI to return your money.
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Thinking about it, you should really be paid commission. Each time you say something about PAS 79, I get emails asking where to get it!!!!
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there are some colin who wish you would get it, and even perhaps some hope you do, very soon! - (dont worry the secret route for captialists who remain secretly faithfull to the red flag will kept open long enough for 'some' to flee. i have provisionally pencilled the names of you and your family on the list, problem is i cant remember which list? wear the dark blue anarok and be at the crossroads at 2000 hrs)- we will be moving to the 24 hour clock because its more inclusive, those hours which were previously referred to as am or pm will become four digit numbers and will be much happier as a result.
dave bev
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Davie, Now you have lost me completely. Might I respectfully ask what you are on about????? Your posting doesnt seem to relate to this thread. Have the commies sent you some bad vodka??????