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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: JC100 on September 09, 2009, 08:33:41 AM
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All
Not sure if this has been covered before so apologies if it has.
Has anyone had any experience in the products used to upgrade doors? I work in residential social housing and on one particular FRA i have highlighted that a flat entrance door doesn't meet the required standard. I plan on having the door replaced with a FD30S door, but the resident wishes to keep her existing door - panelled oak door. She has found a company that have a couple of products http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/042.pdf (http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/042.pdf) or http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdf (http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdf)that can achieve this. Have any of you come across this product previously and in your opinions, do you think this adequate if installed along with intumescent strips, smoke seals and self closer? I'm struggling to believe its sufficient.
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All
Not sure if this has been covered before so apologies if it has.
Has anyone had any experience in the products used to upgrade doors? I work in residential social housing and on one particular FRA i have highlighted that a flat entrance door doesn't meet the required standard. I plan on having the door replaced with a FD30S door, but the resident wishes to keep her existing door - panelled oak door. She has found a company that have a couple of products http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/042.pdf (http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/042.pdf) or http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdf (http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdf)that can achieve this. Have any of you come across this product previously and in your opinions, do you think this adequate if installed along with intumescent strips, smoke seals and self closer? I'm struggling to believe its sufficient.
Yes. Costs about £100 per door when done properly. Envirograf stand over the process. There is a very comprehensive guide available for the upgrading process.
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When done properly is the key to this. Some of these products make slightly "over zealous" claims. I don't know about the product in question but it would be worth asking what tests they have.
They should be able to produce a test report or an assessment, based on tests, that shows the construction of door that the product will be suitable for.
If youre starting with an oak panel door then you are probably in with a chance but you need to consider how the door is jointed, how thick the panels are etc.
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I've been talking with a 'sales person' from the company and this product seems ok and ticks the right boxes, its tested to BS 426:22 and from what i can gather, it will work on well fitting panelled doors provided that the thinnest point is no less than 12mm.
The thing i'm struggling with is; if this is so easy to do, and relatively cheap - why do we install fire doors and not just upgrade doors with this product?
I'd be interested to hear any fire safety officers thoughts?
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I've been talking with a 'sales person' from the company and this product seems ok and ticks the right boxes, its tested to BS 426:22 and from what i can gather, it will work on well fitting panelled doors provided that the thinnest point is no less than 12mm.
The thing i'm struggling with is; if this is so easy to do, and relatively cheap - why do we install fire doors and not just upgrade doors with this product?
I'd be interested to hear any fire safety officers thoughts?
Because of the expense. You can buy a fire door for about £40 - £50 nowadays. The envirograf process costs around £100 per door, if done properly. And you still have to buy a door.
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I've been talking with a 'sales person' from the company and this product seems ok and ticks the right boxes, its tested to BS 426:22 and from what i can gather, it will work on well fitting panelled doors provided that the thinnest point is no less than 12mm.
The thing i'm struggling with is; if this is so easy to do, and relatively cheap - why do we install fire doors and not just upgrade doors with this product?
I'd be interested to hear any fire safety officers thoughts?
Get the test certificates and I think you will find them very interesting and not at all informative.
The amount of claims they are making need to be backed by a third party fire testing Lab and I doubt very much that they will want you to see what they have actually tested.
The application of the product for any tests they have completed will be of a far superior quality to that achieved on site.
I believe the BWF don’t like it and since the continually pregnant Sarah Beeny featured it on her show; questions have been asked of the manufacturers about the evidence they have to back up their claims.
Try the local council housing office; as I am pretty sure they can enforce a fire door change if they are not satisfied that a conversion will be acceptable.
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Bear in mind that there is a difference between something that has been tested, and something that is certified. I can get a corn flakes packet tested to BS476. :)
The doors they submitted might have passed a test, but that doesn't means that anything you might fit the material to will. Notice the lack of any claims regarding meeting the requirements for FD30 or FD30S?
Technicalities aside, it may offer a reasonable solution to a specific problem but it needs a bit more thought than simply believing sales drivel.
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I am a big suporter of many of these products especially for heritage buildings where replacement is not an option. (and not just for big old substantial doors, sometimes a plank door with just a couple of ledges can be part of the listed provision.)
Yhey have convinced English Heritage and National Trust of the benefits. The key is accurrate examination of the test certificates to ensure that the test reports and the samples tested are relevant to the case in point. Someimes companies put together large panels of various different materials and thicknesses to obtain a satisfactory test of various samples in one hit. If this is the case then you have to question the relevance of a panel test being used to justify door construction.
It is most unlikely that the manufacturer will have tested an identical door with the same joints, glues, beading profiles, density of timber as the one that you are upgrading. Provided the evidence derived from the test is used carefully it can inform your decision but will never be definitive. In heritage buildings we aim to use this information to improve a door TOWARDS a particular fire resisting standard, fully recognising that we can never say with absolute confidence what its fire rating will be.
Why face all this hassle if there are other options? But also beware- there are several door manufacturers marketing fire doors - particularly hardwood doors who have simply copied other peoples test results and never actually submitted their own product for test.Is this any better than a door upgrade? If buying a purpose built fire door look for a reputable company such as a member of the ASDMA, BWF certification or similar.
But as others have pointed out, for upgrades standards of application on site are absolutely critical.
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Thanks for your help, some very valid points.
A colleague of mine contacted BWF and you're right - the application process for it to work is more complicated than the manufacturers claim. They also mentioned the door/s the product was tested on would have been chosen specifically for the test and it is unlikely this could be proven to work on any door it was applied to.
In the case in question, the fact that it is very unlikely to be proven to work on the door type in question, and the door itself isn't within a listed building and could be replaced; as an organisation wishing to comply with the RR(FS)O, i feel installing an FD30S door is the best solution.
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And you can get nice fire doors. they don't all look the same.
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i feel installing an FD30S door is the best solution.
Don’t just install a ‘fire door’ get a ‘certified fire door’ installed by a ‘certified installer’.
A cheap fire door installed by a bad joiner will probably be less effective than the door already in place.
Fire doors are not just about having the FD30s on it; it’s all about the whole job it has to perform and with fires in HMOs being at the forefront of the industries mind at the moment why not go for the extra confidence a certified job will bring.
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I am going to change all the doors in a block of flats to 4 minute eggbbox construction and paint them with this intumescent paint. Should save us a couple of hundred thousand pounds. And they comply! Unscrupulous landlord alert!!!
If this miracle paint will upgrade any door to an FD30, why on earth would anyone ever install a fire door again?
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I have never seen any of the manufacturers claim to be able to upgrade eggbox doors.
However I am always willing to be proved wrong. Bobbis point is also very valid- and of course ideally we should be talking about doorsets not just the door leaf.
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I am going to change all the doors in a block of flats to 4 minute eggbbox construction and paint them with this intumescent paint. Should save us a couple of hundred thousand pounds. And they comply! Unscrupulous landlord alert!!!
If this miracle paint will upgrade any door to an FD30, why on earth would anyone ever install a fire door again?
Envirograf does not claim that it's product will upgrade every type of door. e.g. panel in doors should be minimum 6 mm thick.
Does everybody have access to it's publication on the product range and what it claims it can and cannot do?
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http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdf (http://www.envirograf.com/acrobat/038.pdf)
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[Envirograf does not claim that it's product will upgrade every type of door. e.g. panel in doors should be minimum 6 mm thick.
Does everybody have access to it's publication on the product range and what it claims it can and cannot do?
[/quote]
Having looked at the various products they claim to have fire test evidence for, I estimate they would need around 9 separate tests, just to cover one ‘donor’ door specification
If they needed to cover a host of other specifications I would suggest the testing would run in to the high teens if not more.
My best guess is they have designed a test regime that they feel gives them confidence in total coverage. What they think gives them total coverage and what others might think is total coverage will not be the same. I can not for one second believe they have a report from a notified test lab that will cover them for all end use applications.
I think they may have some test evidence but what it covers is proving very difficult to obtain.
The new FSE magazine has a couple of articles on fire doors and in one it states clearly when talking about upgrade products ‘not all will be suitable for all the different types of doorsets to be found in a building’
So how does a RP know if their door is suitable for an upgrade? They ask the people selling them the upgrading product.
It reminds me of those health potions that are good for all ills; indigestion, arthritis, headaches, constipation, sex drive, warts…………………………………………..fire door upgrades and the list goes on and on.
If it was my door I would want them to convince me with test evidence; and that isn’t forthcoming. The article goes on to say ‘upgrading of doorsets must include all aspects of design including the following;’
Leaf construction
Frame
Hardware
Intumescent seals
Glazing door gaps
Installation.
Even this magic product won’t do all of that; I am sure it does have its use and could given the right application be effective.
However I believe they are selling a product that they know will be incorrectly applied to doors, they know it is not going to upgrade everything it is being put on and they are not concerning themselves with the false sense of security the door owner will have after they have spent good money on upgrading.
Responsibility Accountability and Traceability are not words I would apply to
‘DR GOODS intumescent potion number 9’
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Can I just throw in my three pennyworth? Applied coatings to give "fire protection" are only as good as they are complete. How long does the paintwork on a door remain undamaged?
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Found this, might add to the debate
http://www.meansofescape.com/industry-news/news107.aspx
davo
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Hello Auntie LIn, back from your hols? Was involved with similar scenario in property which is watched over by heritage & listed grades people. They ended up using envirograph. Noted in RA concerns/points like you point out as a management risk action to keep aware of any degradation etc. Hoping to go for a re-visit as an aside to see for myself how it's fairing.
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The means of escape article is ok so far as it goes.
But so very often we have to take a pragmatic view for existing doors and frames that need to be improved but cannot be replaced, especially in heritage buildings. Very often its a case of doing what you can to improve the door towards a fire resisting standard and using experience, limited test data to go as far as you reasonably can. You can never estimate how an upgraded door would fare in a fire test, and does it really matter whether its 25mins or 35 mins in the scheme of things- you would always look at additional risk control measures in other areas because you know you have not got a BS 476 part 22 door.
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Hi to you Mr P - hols? hols??? what are they?? (hoping to find out in a couple of weeks time).
Hello Kurnal too - glad to see you're keeping things going in my absence.
This whole issue is a real can of worms. You can start out by looking at how well the leaf fits within the frame. If it's a good fit then it might be worth installing intumescent & smoke seals so that whatever the construction of the door, it will achieve its maximum potential performance. This is unlikely to be the full FD30S, but is better than fitting a new, supposedly 30 minute, leaf badly into the existing frame. You could look at the existing door, to see if there's any clue as to how it's been built. For example, can you see strips of timber at the head of the door (get your handbag mirror out and hold it above the leaf head to see - sorry, forgot chaps don't carry handbag mirrors - you'll have to use a dental mirror). If you can't see anything there, try taking the latch out. If you find egg-crate construction anywhere - demand a new door!
I have very real concerns about anything that is sold for application to the faces of doors. I don't like paints for reasons given before and don't like 'papers' any better. The papers that I've seen have looked and felt like blotting paper - if, like me you're old enough to remember writing with a quill pen and getting inky fingers. I have found two problems with the papers. First is that they damage very easily, so get scraped or scuffed. Second is that unless the person applying them knows what they are doing, bubbles appear on the surface, like your home wallpaper if you don't smooth it down properly.
Trouble with upgrading is that there's no 'one size fits all' solution. You really do have to look at each individual door and tailor-make the solution. This renders upgrading a very expensive exercise.
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I know this has been tested to BS 476 but has it passed? a lot of companies state it has been tested but when asked for evidence stragely I get no response
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You're right to beware of the statement "all our products have been fully tested to BS......" Ask the questions "is the BS quoted the one that is appropriate to the product in question?" "has the product been tested in the way in which it is planned to be used?" and perhaps most crucially "did it pass?" All the other ol' cynics out there will, like me, not be in the slightest bit surprised to know that many of the claims made are based on things like indicative testing. My mind goes back to someone producing something for use with ceilings where the product was tested on a 1m x 1m indicative sample and was being sold for use on a 4m x 5m ceiling!
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I came across a report the other day from an asbestos surveyor stating he suspected fire doors he had viewed contained asbestos and he needed to do an obtrusive test to clarify. Can anyone tell me if asbestos is commonly found in older style fire doors?
My concern is that the doors looked like solid wooden doors that would be suitable for upgrade with intumescent strips, cause if the chippy had gone ahead and done it and there was asbestos the implications could of been nasty all round.
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It was common practice in the 50s and 60s to line doors with asbestos sheeting such as asbestolux to improve their fire performance, sometimes this was done by screwing a sheet of board across the entire side of the door, sometimes it was more subtle where if the stiles and rails were substantial enough in their own right (44mm) then the panel beadings would be removed, a small sheet of asbestolux placed over the thin panel and the beadings replaced, probably trimmed to the thickness of the board. I still have an old data sheet issued by the fire service with instructions how to upgrade a door. I have a feeling that an old version of BS459 covered fire doors in those days but memory getting hazy now.
Did the upgrade work? We will never know but the weight of all that asbestolux pulled many a door off its hinges and warped many others.
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After the scare about white and blue asbestos they also used Supalux a non-combustible calcium silicate board which looks similar the asbestolux.
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After the scare about white and blue asbestos they also used Supalux a non-combustible calcium silicate board which looks similar the asbestolux.
As TW correctly states, both Asbestolux / superlux look very similar.
As an aside to your question the way to tell them apart is fairly simple. Superlux has small crystal-like shards within it (calcium sillicate) which "sparkle", whereas Asbestolux does not.
The close silimarities can cause confusion and uneccessary alarm.
To get back to the main question it is not unheard of to find fire doors containing asbestos in older buildings, infact if I recall correctly the practice Kurnal mentioned continued into the 1970s.
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To get back to the main question it is not unheard of to find fire doors containing asbestos in older buildings, in fact if I recall correctly the practice Kurnal mentioned continued into the 1970s.
It was about 1975 when they started using Supalux in stead of Asbestolux and many thousands of doors must have been upgraded by then.
I agree with Kurnal the British Standard was BS459-3 if memory serves me right but now-days I do have trouble remembering my name so treat that with caution. ???
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Thanks chaps for your replies with respect to asbestos in doors.
I can't say that I've ever read anything in a report that states before considering upgrading doors to have intumescent strips in them, the door should be confirmed that it does not contain asbestos?
I am supposing that if any suspicion exists of a door being of the 70's age then a test for asbestos should be carried out first?
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Hightower
Most panels will have several coats of paint on them making it difficult to tell.
I seem to think that the asbestolux panels were thicker, perhaps those more senior could confirm.
Local Authorities and emergency services used them a lot
If the panel is on business premises ask for their Asbestos Survey (legal requirement)
davo
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Well, here's a granny-brain answer! BS459 Part 3 certainly called for asbestos board to be used in the door construction. I can't find my copy of 459 Part 3 to be able to say whether or not the edges were all lipped, so I can't comment on the likelihood of asbestos being a danger. I guess if the edges were all lipped, there was no visible damage to the leaf and no-one was looking to change any hardware, then you might take the view that you should leave well alone. I agree that it was sometime in the 70s when asbestos started to be banned, but we do need to remember that certain messages take quite a long time to get through.
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Auntie Lin
I remember we fitted loads in the 70s after FPA came out, none were lipped but were heavily painted in Constabulary dark blue! ;D
The asbestos disposal rules changed last year in regard to such low grade composition
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/information.htm#general
davo