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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: Tom W on November 04, 2009, 09:07:48 AM
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Apologies if this is else where but does anyone have any views on the strikes?
They are now to go without pay whilst they strike.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8341004.stm
From what i know its about a change in shift paterns.
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Apologies if this is else where but does anyone have any views on the strikes?
They are now to go without pay whilst they strike.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8341004.stm
From what i know its about a change in shift paterns.
They have always gone without pay whilst they strike Piglet.
Maybe they should form an alliance with politician's wives, husbands, sons, daughters and lovers who they employ and are complaining that they also have a contract of employment which is being torn up.
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I am torn here. It is easy to see it as protesting about a change in hours, but that change in hours will have a huge impact on people with children in school. It is also about the security of the grey book, and how they have proposed to implement the changes. S. Yorks FA have basically said "accept this change in conditions or be sacked"
On the flip side: In this financial climate, where many people have lost their jobs/houses, many skilled people are working for minimum wage, many people are struggling to get by, a firefighter refusing to perform his/her function because they want to change the hours, will seem to many to be a little out of line, to say the least.
FWIW, from discussions held with punters, the publics perception of this strike seems to be quite negative, compared to when they were fighting to be paid an amount reasonable to their responsibilities/risks.
In my opinion it is caused by a lack of communication, with persons in upper management (Maybe even the CFO) purely looking at production/efficiency measures without considering the impact on their staff. Fair enough the night shift is relatively unproductive and modernisation is an unstoppable force, but IMO they have met their unmoveable object in the FBU defending the Grey Book conditions of service.
We will have much greater problems to deal with once Mr Brown's bail-out of the banks starts to hit public spending.
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"The industrial action has been taken after 744 employees were threatened with the sack if they did not accept new employment contracts stating they had to work 12-hour day and night shifts.
The fire authority wants crews to work the new shifts in place of the current nine-hour days and 15-hour nights. "
I accept it will cause problems but its not the worst thing in the world. Its an upheavel. I see there point but there are hell of alot of people out there that want to be fire fighters. There is also as you say alot of skilled workers completely out of work. I see both sides but they need to remember they have a job which an awful lot of people want and will do the hours they want.
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Piglet
When you look at extra childcare costs, arranging for someone else to pick up the kids etc its a lot of upheaval and expense.
I don't blame em
We altered to VSA systems last year, caused lots of problems and anger, two strike ballots forced the Chief to modify the proposed shifts. Its settled down now so they are having a go at overtime ;D
davo
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Oh yes i agree its a right royal pain in the bum! I was just pointing out the other angle.
I can see both sides but i am not siding with either!
I am on the fence but am interested in the debate :-X
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"The industrial action has been taken after 744 employees were threatened with the sack if they did not accept new employment contracts stating they had to work 12-hour day and night shifts.
The fire authority wants crews to work the new shifts in place of the current nine-hour days and 15-hour nights. "
I accept it will cause problems but its not the worst thing in the world. Its an upheavel. I see there point but there are hell of alot of people out there that want to be fire fighters. There is also as you say alot of skilled workers completely out of work. I see both sides but they need to remember they have a job which an awful lot of people want and will do the hours they want.
So because of the current financial downturn and job losses are we supposed to allow employers to run roughshod over us without recourse?
Also, there is a difference between the figures for people who want to become firefighters and those suitable, as in every walk of life.
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"The industrial action has been taken after 744 employees were threatened with the sack if they did not accept new employment contracts stating they had to work 12-hour day and night shifts.
The fire authority wants crews to work the new shifts in place of the current nine-hour days and 15-hour nights. "
I accept it will cause problems but its not the worst thing in the world. Its an upheavel. I see there point but there are hell of alot of people out there that want to be fire fighters. There is also as you say alot of skilled workers completely out of work. I see both sides but they need to remember they have a job which an awful lot of people want and will do the hours they want.
So because of the current financial downturn and job losses are we supposed to allow employers to run roughshod over us without recourse?
Also, there is a difference between the figures for people who want to become firefighters and those suitable, as in every walk of life.
No we are not expected to let bosses run rough shot over us but i would think it would make us a bit more flexible to the workplace. I have my hours to work but i work more without pay this means that its less likely someone can come in and take my job. Or come redundancy time my position is seen as more value for money.
I understand that alot of people that apply are not suitable to be a FF but it is a highly valued job.
Again i will state im not trying to antaganise anyone i meerly wish to hear the debate so i thought i would play the advocate.
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The latest strikes by South Yorkshire firefighters have been called off after breakthrough talks between fire managers and union officials.
The Fire Brigades Union (FBU) said it had called off industrial action over shift time changes after fire chiefs agreed to bring in mediators Acas.
A strike due to take place on Wednesday has now been cancelled, as has further action planned for later in the month.
The fire authority said it hoped to "work positively" with the union.
FBU regional secretary Ian Murray said: "There is a cessation of all industrial action, which will be finalised when Acas terms of reference have been agreed by both sides.
"South Yorkshire firefighters would like to thank the public for their unswerving support and understanding."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8343060.stm
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I haven't used this site for a while or else I would have written on this topic before now. I used to serve in South Yorkshire and I still have a brother serving there at the moment.
The industrial action was about the method of implementation of change and the all out intent to bully people in to accepting something without formal consultation or feedback with the employees. The changes that the CFO was trying to force upon the employees would have left them at his mercy every time any mad brained idea was put forward. If this incorrect behaviour had been allowed to go through without major protest, every CFO in the UK would introduce whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted without consultation or discussion by simply saying, accept it or we'll fire you and re-hire you on a different contract. This is not a good basis for decent working relations and the morale of the workforce should not be completely disregarded. I know first hand that the firefighters in South Yorkshire were disgusted with the way they felt they were being handled by their senior managers and felt as if they were looked upon with contempt by them for disagreeing with unfair proposals. The unions did try to negotiate with the senior managers on the issues that the CFO wanted to implement, but the senior management team wouldn't enter any dialogue with them. It's very easy to shout about how other people have to tolerate poor their working conditions are and other comparisons to the general public, but at the end of the day, the fire service is not their organisation the work done by the fire service is very unique. The days of playing snooker all day and sleeping all night don't exist any more, firefighters do more than ever before and only want to be dealt with on a fair basis and not dealt with like serfs who will be bullied.
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Im going to make a suggestion. The suggestion is that you accept the CFO and the organisation will do what it wants and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Union? what union? the FBU has no sway whatsoever.Its a toothless tiger. The problem is very simple, we're in a recession, jobs are hard to come by, the CFO knows that so if you want to keep your job shut up and put up, and if you think the fire service is bad try working in other areas of the public sector. I know from experience we dont have it too bad in the brigade.
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Cleveland, with all due respect, life is about more than rolling over and dying. The Authority should have respect for what the firefighters do and in turn the firefighters should have some understanding of the finacial pressures that all Brigades are under thanks to Government interference. Only when both sides have this understanding will progress be made. Having said that there are a number of CFO's out there with their own agenda's that have to be fought off. The "In the Line of Fire" report has made a nonsense of reactive firefighting with a policy of proactive CFS and Fire Safety, in theory, taking over. I have heard various CFO's spout the immortal phrases "operational firefighting is only 10% of the job, so you can do more", and firefighters do, but then officers chase that operational figure 100% of the time. However, for the public reactiveness is the main reason firefighters are there.
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I take your point Jokar but you have a Labour government which continues to practice the same values as the old iron lady did twenty years ago. They seek to quosh unions at any opportunity. Look at what happened when we went on strike and the mess that occurred as a result. Dont get me wrong some reforms were needed and the lower ranks got some extra wedge for their trouble. But we also got ranks to roles which has got to be one of the biggest whte elephants this government has ever created second only to regionalised controls which Ive learnt today from an MP are costing triple their original estimations , and big lots of intereference from the fire and resillience department who know practically nothing about the brigades in this country. So case closed KAKFOA sorry CFOA , HMG and CLG (Complete Load of Guff) have culminated in making the UK fire service alaughing stock, and guess what they did that without your grass routes rank and file having any say about it. This was thanks to that useless bunch called the FBU who thought it was bigger and better than it actually was and then got a damn good kicking and firmly put back in its place by Tony B. It now remains cowering behind the parapet occassionally popping its head above with the odd cry of foul play. It then scurries back.
But I say again, if you think the fire service are treated badly you go talk to NHS staff, you go talk to the Royal Mail staff, you go talk to people in the private sector. Im annoyed because we firefighters (albeit retired in my case) dont half think we've got it bad. Well the fact is we haven't not compqared with most and the firefighters in question should remember theyre lucky to have a job and keep a roof over their heads.Here endeth the lesson.
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Im going to make a suggestion. The suggestion is that you accept the CFO and the organisation will do what it wants and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Union? what union? the FBU has no sway whatsoever.Its a toothless tiger. The problem is very simple, we're in a recession, jobs are hard to come by, the CFO knows that so if you want to keep your job shut up and put up, and if you think the fire service is bad try working in other areas of the public sector. I know from experience we dont have it too bad in the brigade.
I am deeply saddened reading the above post and I am sorry to say that it is because of the likes of people shouldering this attitude in the fire servicethat we find ourselves in the position we are in today.
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no it isnt. Want to blame someone, blame the unions they sold everyone down the river. Simple as that. Ive done my fair share of moaning and fighting and in the end it gets you nowhere. Yu have to real;ise thatour superiors will do what they want whether we like it or not. Im also suggesting that other organisations have it much worse, so think what you like.
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Union finished? Give in tot he CFO as there is no point?
Well in that case please explain this press release about the calling off of strike action:
Central to the deal is the fire authority withdrawing the threat to sack firefighters to force through changes. The strings attached have now been dropped.
The fire authority has also agreed to immediately involve ACAS. It had previously agreed to their involvement, but only at a later date.
There has been a cessation of all current industrial action.
Today’s offer from the union included a proposal to move to 10 hour day shifts and 14 hour night shifts, which would have less of an impact on working parents and carers. The fire authority would still, however, be able to put their own shift proposals to outside parties trying to assist.
The union would accept the employer’s offer to declare the use of mass dismissal to force through new contracts ‘null and void’ if unacceptable strings were dropped. The union could immediately call a cessation to all industrial action currently taking place if the fire authority made such a move.
The union dismissed last week’s offer because of the other obstacles the fire service put in the way of agreement.
Ian Murray, FBU regional secretary said: “South Yorkshire fire and rescue service has agreed to the offer we made to them this afternoon. They have now removed the strings attached to the offer they made last week.
“The union pushed very hard to get them to the talks today and that has paid off. There is a cessation of all industrial action, which will be finalised when ACAS terms of reference have been agreed by both sides.
“South Yorkshire firefighters would like to thank the public for their unswerving support and understanding. We also pay tribute to those local MPs and others who were encouraging the steps which have now been taken by the fire authority.”
Presmably that was all due tot he CFO and the Union and strike action played no part? Get real Cleveland ::)
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Do you really think the FBU are as powerful as they were prior to the strikes? Do you really believe no strings are attached? Do you believe everything you hear in press releases? Dont you think this is going on in other brigades, but where is the national war cry from the FBU to HMG? Do you think the MPs intervention was politically motivated considering a general election is around the corner?Time to wake up and smell the coffee and get real yourself.The penny will drop sooner or later and I aint gonna argue with ya. You think what you like, but keep an eye on what develops from the situation and ask yourself what Mr Wrack and his cronies really do for the rank and file. They talk a good fight, but dont have the bottle to see it through. And as for Andy Gilchrist, well he said he was going to brong down the government and look what happened to him, not exactly the Arthur Scargill character he hoped to be.
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So Cleveland, should we all throw our cards in?
Are you a member?
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Nah, all ill say is that the union may have won the fight in south yorks but its lost the battle overall. Fair play to the lads and lassies in S.Yorks glad they finally got a result, but their victory will be at the cost of something else somewhere down the line.
And I was a member until just after the national strikes.
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Im going to make a suggestion. The suggestion is that you accept the CFO and the organisation will do what it wants and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. Union? what union? the FBU has no sway whatsoever.Its a toothless tiger. The problem is very simple, we're in a recession, jobs are hard to come by, the CFO knows that so if you want to keep your job shut up and put up, and if you think the fire service is bad try working in other areas of the public sector. I know from experience we dont have it too bad in the brigade.
Comments like this always make me laugh, you say you were a member until just after the national strikes and then you left. Like you, I was disillusioned with the union leadership during the strike and believe they could have managed things much better, but at the end of the day, I made my own decisions and stuck to them. The union never forced me to strike, they never forced me to picket, they never forced me to walk out of the station doors to make a point for the TV cameras, I did it all because I believed it was right at the time. I am most certainly not some union flag waver who says that everything is wrong from management but I totally disagree with the argument that just because we didn't have the results we expected in one battle, we give up in every other battle after that. On this forum, you come across as a real fighter, but your comments lead me to think you are just bitter and twisted and maybe even have another agenda behind your provocation.
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Think what you like Kaiser, Im not really bothered one way or the other. I too believed going on strike was the right thing to do , then in the end felt the union let me down, which it did do, there is no denying that, and if you cant see the wood for the trees thats your issue not mine. You dont have to agree with me. Please also dont pretend you didnt feel pressure about whether to go on starike or not. YOu may or may not have wanted to strike, but there was huge resentment to those who didnt want to by the hard liners in every brigade across the country. Resentment in a job like ours isn't healthy especially when the mess is hitting the fan at a working job and youre in BA with a chap who doesn't like you. So Kaiser you have youre right to express your opinion as do I. Im very glad I make you laugh
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I don't have any need to pretend anything about not feeling pressured and I did do what I felt was right at the time. If I didn't want to go out I wouldn't have and I certainly wouldn't have let anyone bully me about it. Maybe you were weak at the time and followed every decision like a lost sheep and feel bitter about it all now because you didn't have the guts to stand up for what YOU believed back then, maybe that's why you feel we should all be lectured to about ""The crap union"". I reckon you were the sheep that followed blindly, shouted loudest to follow the union, then left after slagging them off once you left. I've met guys like you on station and you're all the same to me.
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Like I said Kaiser you have the right to think what you like, Youre wrong, atleast about my motives, but i see im not going to change your mind. Like I said we all follow what we think is right.