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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: jakespop on January 04, 2010, 09:22:51 AM

Title: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: jakespop on January 04, 2010, 09:22:51 AM
Can anyone clarify if "wedging fire doors" and similar abuses of fire safety provisions could be considered as "criminal offences"? If so, in what circumstances(or all)?
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Tom W on January 04, 2010, 09:58:23 AM
Wedging open fire doors means you are not maintaining an effective means of escape.

See the co-op case and countless others you can be prosecuted for it. I think the Co-Op were fined about £1000 a door.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Midland Retty on January 04, 2010, 10:07:52 AM
Hi Jakespop

Whilst it is generally undesirable to wedge open fire doors, for obvious reasons, it is not to say that propping a fire door is a criminal offence.

For instance you may have staff propping open fire doors in a sweltering office with poor ventilation. If the staff have been trained to close the fire doors when the office is unattended or if the fire alarm goes off then that may be acceptable subject to risk assessment.

So propping fire doors is not a criminal offence, if however someone was injured or killed in a blaze and it could be proven that propped fire doors contributed directly or indirectly to that injury or fatality it would become subject of legal action.

Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Tom W on January 04, 2010, 10:23:58 AM
I think you would be on very thin ice if you were trying to use that argument! One of the Co-op stores were taking a delivery and a fire door was wedged with a case of beer - its still breaking the law and they were prosecuted. There was no fire.

You are also guilty of breaking the Building Act 1984
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: kurnal on January 04, 2010, 10:29:48 AM
It could be an offence in several circumstances.
Offences under the Fire Safety order usually only arise if a failure to comply  (eg wedging a door) actually places one or more persons at risk of death or serious injury in case of fire.
Who would decide whether that was the case? The Court would decide, and in order to bring you to court the Fire Authority would have to read you your rights etc and take the prosecution forward.

However if the Fire Authority have already served an enforcement notice in respect of your wedging doors open then to breach the requirements of the notice is an offence in itself. There is then no need for the prosecution to prove that persons were placed at risk.

Similarly if an alterations  notice or a prohibition is in force any breach of this would be an offence.

Where offences are committed under the Fire Safety Order procedings may be taken against any person who has a hand in committing the offence in addition to the Responsible Person.  

But please- wedges are a diabolical abuse of a fire door. If it needs to be held open for any reason then please do it in a safe way using an appropriate hold open device that will release on operation of the fire alarm. There are loads of devices on the market to do this, some are safer than others, some doors are more critical than others, you need to identify the correct device for the circumstances of the case. In many situations a device such as a dorgard will be fine, in other cases swing free self closers or magnetic hold open devices controlled by the fire alarm are needed.  
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Mushy on January 04, 2010, 10:46:41 AM
be careful though...sometimes fire doors do not need to be fire doors and it can confuse inspecting officers :)

for example, where I work, there are offices that have two way travel once out of the door...but because they thought it was easier to bulk buy fire doors they installed them...now if they are wedged open then I can't see it being an offence....best to take off the self closer to avoid confusion!

Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Midland Retty on January 04, 2010, 10:46:59 AM
I think you would be on very thin ice if you were trying to use that argument! One of the Co-op stores were taking a delivery and a fire door was wedged with a case of beer - its still breaking the law and they were prosecuted. There was no fire.

You are also guilty of breaking the Building Act 1984

It depends Piglet on the specifics of the scenario.

The Fire Authority would have to prove that the propped door(s) placed one or more persons at risk of death or serious injury in case of fire.

To suggest that propping a fire door open is a criminal offence in all cases would be incorrect.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: AnthonyB on January 04, 2010, 01:44:16 PM
As explained above a propped door that happens to be a fire door is not in itself wrong - however if the fire doorset forms part of the fire precautions measures provided in a building to meet the broad requirements of the order then if it is propped in such a way it would not perform as planned (i.e. wedge not auto release) then it would most likely lead to a breach of the Order.

The Fire Safety Order is a statute of Criminal law, not civil law, dealt with via the criminal system of Magistrates & Crown Courts, so anything causing a breach (be it fire doors, lack of assessment, inadequate training et al) would be a criminal offence with all that that entails other than a power of arrest.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: jokar on January 04, 2010, 02:00:52 PM
Jakespop, in answer to your original post about all fire safety provisions then yes is the answer.  As Anthony has stated the Fire Safety Order is Criminal Law and as such if an Enforcing Authority took action against a Responsible Person, RP,, the definition in law applies, then a Magistrate or a Judge could deem that offences under the Order had been committed and issue judgement against the RP and apply any or all of the the penalties they deem necessary from fines to imprisonment.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: jakespop on January 04, 2010, 02:16:01 PM
Thank you for all of the replies. I am not looking at specific breaches at present, merely putting together some training to advise on potential consequences of staff non compliance. From what has been said I woukld gather that staff as well as "Responsible Person" could be considered for prosecution?
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: jimbosdad on January 04, 2010, 03:48:41 PM
In my opinion and dependant on the circumstances, yes under Article 23 of the order
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: jokar on January 04, 2010, 04:11:53 PM
Article 23 is a straight lift from Regulation 14 of the MHSWR and involves people at work and yes they can be considered.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Goodsparks on January 04, 2010, 06:34:20 PM
Quote
But please- wedges are a diabolical abuse of a fire door. If it needs to be held open for any reason then please do it in a safe way using an appropriate hold open device that will release on operation of the fire alarm. There are loads of devices on the market to do this, some are safer than others, some doors are more critical than others, you need to identify the correct device for the circumstances of the case. In many situations a device such as a dorgard will be fine, in other cases swing free self closers or magnetic hold open devices controlled by the fire alarm are needed. 

I thought fire extinguishers were the safest thing to use when propping fire doors open - surely thousands of people can't all be wrong ?
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: AnthonyB on January 04, 2010, 09:35:30 PM
Thank you for all of the replies. I am not looking at specific breaches at present, merely putting together some training to advise on potential consequences of staff non compliance. From what has been said I woukld gather that staff as well as "Responsible Person" could be considered for prosecution?

Yes - safet ylaw also can cover individuals other than managers/employers/responsible persons - look at the H&S at Work Act that has provision for prosecuting anyone who interferes with or misuses safety equipment/provisions
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: CivvyFSO on January 05, 2010, 12:28:11 PM
However if the Fire Authority have already served an enforcement notice in respect of your wedging doors open then to breach the requirements of the notice is an offence in itself.

An enforcement notice for door wedges? What sort of time-frame are we looking at for that notice? ;)
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Mushy on January 05, 2010, 12:41:22 PM
However if the Fire Authority have already served an enforcement notice in respect of your wedging doors open then to breach the requirements of the notice is an offence in itself.

An enforcement notice for door wedges? What sort of time-frame are we looking at for that notice? ;)

just had one with that included...as part of a bigger package!
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Tom W on January 05, 2010, 02:06:29 PM
Ive seen a few actually!
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: CivvyFSO on January 06, 2010, 12:20:39 AM
Mad world.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: kurnal on January 06, 2010, 08:58:12 AM
Yes Civvy I agree to a point. Informal action is the obvious course of action to take for any hazard such as a wedge that can be dealt with in an instant.

But getting the gaffer to remove the wedge does not deal with the underlying problem. Sometimes the big guns have to come out otherwise the wedge will be back the minute you walk out the door.

Was in a 32 flat  extra care(less) sheltered housing complex before Christmas. One Resident had mental health problems and was a chain smoker, the warden said that the social worker insisted that this persons flat door must be wedged open all the time as he felt closed in and threatened otherwise. Other residents not too impressed but they dont have a say over the Authorities. "Uman Rights Act and Elf and Safety you know"

A little further along the same flats corridor the laundry door was wedged open and had a sign stuck on it reading as follows "Please do not remove the wedge from this door. It is a heavy door and must be kept open all the time for cleaning purposes  (signed scheme manager)"

It would be a heavy door. Its a 1 hour fire door installed because the BCO insisted that the ancillary accommodation be separated from the sleeping accommodation to a one hour standard. So that was a big success too.

Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: nearlythere on January 06, 2010, 09:39:12 AM

the warden said that the social worker insisted that this persons flat door must be wedged open all the time as he felt closed in and threatened otherwise.
 
So the social worker could be prosecuted as she/he took control of the matter of wedging the door open?
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: kurnal on January 06, 2010, 11:30:53 AM
No. Cant be done. You have no history or evidence chain as the FSO just grumbles and pockets the wedges every time he visits.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Midland Retty on January 06, 2010, 12:22:26 PM
No. Cant be done. You have no history or evidence chain as the FSO just grumbles and pockets the wedges every time he visits.

Slightly disagree there.

The fact is if anything were to occur (for instance the chain smoking patient set fire to his / her bedding - the fire spreads because the door was propped open - people are put at risk ) then the resulting investigation would look at all aggrivating factors. This could include what affect the social worker had.

There's nothing stopping the Fire Authority from obtaining witness statements to say that the social worker asked for the door to be wedged or interviewing the social worker.

Clearly the responsible person should have acted on the situation and looked at installing hold open devices and the like, but that aside, this demonstrates a common problem when inspectors from other authorities insist or compell the RP to do X,Y or Z (sometimes using the bluff and pursuasion act) which unfortunately conflicts with, or places the RP in contravention of fire safety legislation.

The RP is sometimes left being pushed from pillar to post wondering what they should have done differently.

Back to propping open doors - I do agree that 9 times out of 10 removing the wedge is treating the symptom and not the cause.

In Kurnals example wedges are definately unacceptable. But go back to my small low risk office where the staff are sweltering in the heat during the summer months and prop their door open to get a bit of ventilation. So long as the item propping the door was removed when the office is unattended or the fire alarm activates is there really an issue? The Answer is risk assessment!
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: kurnal on January 06, 2010, 12:42:20 PM
Peoples perception of the effects of wedging doors and what they would do in a fire is so often way off the mark. Saw this once in a care home fire - the fire started in the laundry, the door was wedged because it was hot. The lady working in there had every intention of removing the wedge if the fire alarm sounded. Trouble was the fire did start whilst she was at the other end of the buidling delivering clean clothes to rooms and had forgotten to take the wedge out before she left.

Another example of misperception occurred in a Notts Pub just before Christmas. I attended a private party in the function room. One fire exit was completely obstructed as the pool table was pushed against it and set out with a buffet. I then saw the landlord lock the other door with a key. Why have you done that? I challenged him. He said he always did it to stop unwanted guests attending the private function. But dont worry the key is in my pocket and I will unlock the door if there is a fire.

Bet you wont I said. Because if a fire occurs somewhere in your pub you will go straight to the scene of the fire to investigate whats going on and forget all about the door. He opened it for me- but I bet next time he will lock it just the same.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: AnthonyB on January 06, 2010, 12:47:09 PM
I agree - you are living in a dream world if you think people will remember to un-wedge doors etc in a fire situation. Once they've decided to leave at all their only thought will be to grab their coat, laptop & coffee on the way.

If it's a safety critical door as part of the fire precautions measures in a premises I will not accept any bluff about removing it in a fire because experience tells me that it's a load of tosh even if the person was genuine in intent as oppose to just making an excuse. I'd rather find them an acceptable way of holding the door open
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: FSO on January 06, 2010, 01:07:07 PM
However if the Fire Authority have already served an enforcement notice in respect of your wedging doors open then to breach the requirements of the notice is an offence in itself.

An enforcement notice for door wedges? What sort of time-frame are we looking at for that notice? ;)

Well at least 28 days  ;) :D
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: FSO on January 06, 2010, 01:17:40 PM
Another example of misperception occurred in a Notts Pub just before Christmas. I attended a private party in the function room. One fire exit was completely obstructed as the pool table was pushed against it and set out with a buffet. I then saw the landlord lock the other door with a key. Why have you done that? I challenged him. He said he always did it to stop unwanted guests attending the private function. But dont worry the key is in my pocket and I will unlock the door if there is a fire.

I had a similar thing a few months ago (in a similar county ;)) when I was locked in a bar and could not find the way out. When I asked the doorman where the way out was, he said he would return with the key. 5 minutes later he let me out.

When I challanged him on it he stated it was not a fire exit (whilst standing under the maintained illuminated exit signage) and they locked the doors to stop undesriables coming in. Surely thats his job??

I raised my concerns with the local FRS the following day.
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: afterburner on January 06, 2010, 03:04:54 PM
we, the population of the UK have buried enough victims and wrung our hands at enough enquiries to know that locked fire exits are a disaster looking for a place to happen.

The only exemption from 'easily & immediately openable' (under Scottish Fire Law) is for places of lawful detention. If it ain't a Prison, Police Station, Court or Immigration Detention Centre a locked fire exit is unacceptable
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Tom W on January 06, 2010, 03:16:19 PM
What about homes for people with dementia/metal issues? Prone to wonder about and could cause harm to themselves and others?
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: nearlythere on January 06, 2010, 04:20:32 PM
What about homes for people with dementia/metal issues? Prone to wonder about and could cause harm to themselves and others?
Do you mean the forum members?
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: Tom W on January 06, 2010, 05:02:15 PM
haha  ;D
Title: Re: Wedging open fire doors
Post by: afterburner on January 07, 2010, 09:57:45 AM
Hi Piglet,

If the people with dementia etc. are legally in custody, the exemptions apply.

If they are in a care home (etc.) there is no exemption from the 'easily and immediately'. However, in such circumstances the specialised nature of the 'client group' would limit the 'easily and immediately' to authorised persons (normally staff). How the necessary outcomes are achieved require consideration and agreement between the carers, the fire risk asseessor and the enforcing authority.

In most cases the enforcing authority are sympathetic to specialised fire safety outcomes and do not blithely demand free and open egress where such a provision would create problems.