FireNet Community

FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 10:22:32 AM

Title: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 10:22:32 AM
Hi all

can anyone remind this auld git of the distances auto detection should be either side of an automatically closing doors. I thought it was about 18 inches...has this been changed to 7.5 metres?!
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: nearlythere on February 05, 2010, 10:39:11 AM
Hi all

can anyone remind this auld git of the distances auto detection should be either side of an automatically closing doors. I thought it was about 18 inches...has this been changed to 7.5 metres?!
BS7273 Pt4 Section 13. Normally 0.5 - 1.5 but with some conditions.
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 10:42:28 AM
I don't know why I said 18 inches when I meant 1.5 metres!...I am getting old...thanks nearly there
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 11:07:57 AM
check out 3.7 in this document

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/efd/maintenance/fire/documents/UCLFire_TN_016.pdf
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 11:16:19 AM
sorry just discovered this thread

http://www.kingfell.com/~forum/index.php?topic=4346.0
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 11:39:10 AM
Can anyone paste on here BS 7273 part 4 Section 13...the company installing the system is saying that they can be 7.5 metres from the doors
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Davo on February 05, 2010, 12:11:46 PM
Mushy

for info, its six pages long with diagrams, suggest you get a copy, its very useful

13.2.4.b appears to be what you want, confirms nearlythere!


davo
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: nearlythere on February 05, 2010, 01:08:56 PM
Can anyone paste on here BS 7273 part 4 Section 13...the company installing the system is saying that they can be 7.5 metres from the doors
Mushy
I'm sure you are aware that 7.5M is a number associated with the distance of the detector from any point in a room for life protection. There is no such number specified for the positioning of detection for automatic door closers.
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Tom Sutton on February 05, 2010, 02:49:10 PM
There are two standard relating to auto closing doors

BS 7273-4:2007 - Code of practice for the operation of fire protection measures. Actuation of release mechanisms for doors and the Euro standard BS EN 1155:1997 Building hardware. Electrically powered hold-open devices for swing doors. Requirements and test methods
maybe you should check out both and the Euro one could be easier to understand.

Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 05, 2010, 04:02:41 PM
nearlythere...yes I am aware of that...and when I told the lad that this is where he was probably getting confused...he wondered off muttering summink  :)

anyhow what a day...snapped the ligaments in my finger by tucking my shirt in me trousers so its now at 90 degrees...only I could do that!  :-[

cheers davo/tw
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: nearlythere on February 05, 2010, 04:28:27 PM
nearlythere...yes I am aware of that...and when I told the lad that this is where he was probably getting confused...he wondered off muttering summink  :)

anyhow what a day...snapped the ligaments in my finger by tucking my shirt in me trousers so its now at 90 degrees...only I could do that!  :-[

cheers davo/tw
Now there's a cue for a list of suggestions on what the summink was the lad was muttering.
How's about "That Mushy git has caught me out. I won't make much on this job"

As to how you bent your fingers with your hand pushed down your trousers does not bear thinking about. Cat, any suggestions?

Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: jokar on February 05, 2010, 05:01:12 PM
The other point to make is that if detection is already in situ then the distances do not matter.  It is only where there is no detection that the distances for detection to the doors themselves have to be incorporated.

Hope the finger gets better soon, otherwise you will not be able to put it down your trousers again without someone thinking it strange.
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mushy on February 08, 2010, 08:39:06 AM
well jokar you defo got me on that one...I didn't know that...so the smoke detector that is about 7 metres away from proposed new doors will suffice...I may now have a red face :(

oh the finger is now splinted up...you would have thought the simple act of tucking yer shirt into yer trousers would be straight forward enough and shouldn't really result in a trip to A&E and then the X-ray department...sorry I digress
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Cat on February 08, 2010, 09:07:03 AM
Now there's a cue for a list of suggestions on what the summink was the lad was muttering.
How's about "That Mushy git has caught me out. I won't make much on this job"

As to how you bent your fingers with your hand pushed down your trousers does not bear thinking about. Cat, any suggestions?

I don't think I want to elaborate on that one.  To be safe, no comment.  On a serious note I hope your finger gets better soon.
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Mr. P on February 09, 2010, 08:28:13 AM
Jokar, if the system is already in place - it don't necessarily mean it's it's been done right. Still worth pointing out to RP.
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: jokar on February 09, 2010, 01:00:13 PM
Goodness me Mr P, are you saying that people do not put things in correctly?  I think the FSC would challenege that they have great examples of where they had completed FRA's to an exacting standard.  Though unfortunatley not on their own premises.

Yes, good point.
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Dinnertime Dave on February 09, 2010, 01:28:46 PM
Didn`t CFOA issue some guidance a few years back saying that an L3 system should be used due to Buoyancy of the smoke in corridors.

By the way i`m not agreeing with CFOA, just informing - so please don`t laugh.  ???
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Wiz on February 10, 2010, 12:12:26 PM
I've been on the piste for a while, so joining this late.

Firstly I would pick up on one minor point.

Someone previously said;

....I'm sure you are aware that 7.5M is a number associated with the distance of the detector from any point in a room for life protection......


I believe that this distance is also applicable to property protection.

Secondly, someone previously mentioned old CFOA recommendations. Surely, these don't overide current British Standards? If they have any authority then I also demand that the WROT (Wiz's Rule Of Thumb) recommendations are also taken into consideration in the future!

In respect of the original question, BS7273 (spit!) almost certainly has some bearing on the issue. This BS can vary the automatic detector positions and spacings (including those in adjacent rooms) dependent on system category designation.

Does anyone know the 5839 system category designation and the 7273 (spit!) actuation category designation of the system in question, so that the specific recommendations can be ascertained?
Title: Re: Auto closing doors-smoke detector distances
Post by: Graeme on February 12, 2010, 11:59:25 AM
Dear Wiz

i have been on the Piste since i was 17 so thats no excuse for joining in late