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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mushy on June 10, 2010, 09:49:45 AM
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Hi
I have a RRO tecknicul question....
A FRA is about 16 months old...no review has been carried out
what is your opinion on a Fire Authority sending a letter, under a RRO heading, saying that the FRA is not suitable and sufficient because it has not been reviewed?
seeing the RRO doesn't mention a specific time to carry out a review after the original assessment was made....it says 'regularly' and particularly if there has been a significant change....which there hasn't
ok we all know that it is an unwritten rule that it's usually done on an annual basis...but it would make an interesting court case
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,....it says 'regularly' and particularly if there has been a significant change....which there hasn't '
and thats the problem its generic not specific .
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Many F&RSs have received legal guidance informing them that they may not serve notice if the only area of non-compliance is a Fire Risk Assessment that has not been reviewed.
If they found a significant finding that had not been picked up because the FRA was not up to date, then the lack of review could be added to the Notice because the failure to review has led to one or more other relevant failures.
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And that's the trouble with the use of words like periodically and regularily. They mean very little when it comes to setting schedules.
A FRA should be reviewed periodically so as to keep it up to date. But then how up to date should "up to date" be?
Fire & Rescue Services like to see, at least some evidence, that a FRA is adequately managed. This includes keeping it up to date.
My advice to clients is on this is that unless a significent change occurs a FRA should be reviewed 6 monthly to determine if a "review" is necessary so as to keep it up to date. It may only be a matter of ticking a box and signing a line to say that nothing has happened so as to require a full review and it shows that it has been given periodic consideration.
Not difficult to do, keeps the wolves at bay and makes for a peaceful existance.
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I don't think they would have a leg to stand on in that particular regard Mushy. Providing that the details in the risk assessment are still relevant to the premises and records the prescribed information, then it is suitable and sufficient. The different aspects of 'suitable and sufficient' and the 'review' are under different paragraphs in the Order. 9(1) and 9(3) respectively.
There is a clear route to ensure a review takes place, but it should be done under article 9(3). You need to review it to ensure that there have been no changes, otherwise it is just simply luck. i.e. At what point would the RP acknowledge/consider any changes? Just when challenged on the risk assessment? It is approaching a fault with article 11 at the same time, as I would be questioning the ongoing management/arrangements. If a written record of the prescribed information is required then written records of the fire safety arrangements are required, in here should it not be stated when and how things are maintained and reviewed to ensure ongoing safety?
But that being said, it doesn't say in the Order that the review has to be recorded, it is a hard one to prove unless there are clear discrepancies in the recorded information and what is actually found.
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I agree with CivvyFSO
Inspectors would certianly be recommending that an assessment is reviewed at least annually, but could that be enforced?
As CivvyFSO states if an assessment hasn't been reviewed for 5 years but its content is still relevant and correct, then I think the enforcing authority would be hard pushed to do anything about it.
The only thing the Fire Authority may is put a note on file that the RA hadn't been reviewed in 5 years and that whilst the content was still relevant the RP was advised to review it annually.
Thus on any subsequent audits if the RA was no longer current because it was not reviewed the FRA may have a case, justifiably so, to then take some form of action.
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Mushy
How do you know there hasn't been a significant change if it hasn't been reviewed?
In H & S annually always means 14 months in practice, after that you are stuffed!
Its up to the assessor to recommend a frequency based upon what he/she finds eg processes, management quality etc etc you know the drill ;D
davo
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Mushy
How do you know there hasn't been a significant change if it hasn't been reviewed?
I would think Mushy that significant changes would normally be preplanned and as such when the changes are made, the FRA would be subject to review and, where necessary, updating.
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Mushy
How do you know there hasn't been a significant change if it hasn't been reviewed?
I would think Mushy that significant changes would normally be preplanned and as such when the changes are made, the FRA would be subject to review and, where necessary, updating.
Ah - in a perfect world yes - but lots of changes to internal layout, process and staffing do occur in reality without a FRA update.
I've seen quite a few notices citing lack of 12 monthly FRA review, it's not that uncommon, however is virtually always listed with other problems found
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As a former IO this was a question I was often asked. I always stated that it was more important that it was suitable and suficient. Unfortunately this can mean a two month old FRA is not s+s but a 3 year old one is, assuming there has been no significant change.
I used to advise an annual review of the FRA and if there had been no significant change a simple " reviewed by Mr/Mrs X on whatever date and no change" note would suffice if appropriate.
Hoiwever I do know inspecting officers who demand an annual review, I would suggest that a challenge be made to these requests and see where it goes.
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Again it's a case of ambiguous definitions - what constitutes a review?
I would argue that in some places a simple " reviewed by Mr/Mrs X on whatever date and no change" note would suffice, particularly those that carry out other regular monitoring of the provisions made in the assessment (the weekly check sheets for MoE, extinguisher visual, etc), or simple premises.
However is the review something that needs a bigger more comprehensive report/record?
Perhaps.........
We don't generally do reviews as such - our client base prefers us just to redo the whole thing each year as it's easier than trying to keep track of when changes happen & then commission a report, plus changes are common with tenants changing all the time and alterations happening, so it's not been to much of an issue except when advising tenants.