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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: b217bravo on May 25, 2005, 06:45:35 PM
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I read that Durham & Darlington FRS has appointed a business woman as their new CO & that Shropshire FRS has appointed a female HR manager to the post of ACFO.
Now I am sure that both of these ladies are well qualified in their own fields but what a kick in the teeth for any serving officer looking for career advancement in the service. Were these posts advertised & subject to interview?
I feel that we will see more & more of this happening in the future, the bean counters took over in industry & look what happened there, at least they won't be able to outsource services offshore, would play havoc with attendance times!
Any comments (printable)?
Geoff
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Answer to your question in line 3 - yes.
Also Cheshire have appointed and external candidate (also happens to be female) as DCFO.
Note that D&DFRS have not appointed the lady as CO she is the Chief Executive.
Services using the new service roles and the way that the Appt & Prom regs allow should be careful to remember that no one so appointed holds a rank. They are in roles. Thus the lady shown wearing DCFO uniform in a Cheshire publicity photo is actually a Brigade Manager, HMI role insignia applies only to operational PPE (i.e. Fire kit). Either we have the new rules applied properly, or not at all.
They couldn't outsource services offshore? - don't tempt them because they certainly could. Technology would allow this for control. So let's not go there.
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to firetrm.
Thank you for your observations, I should have expanded my post to suggest that any appointment by a non op candidate should carry the title Chief Executive as is the case in industry.
I had forgotten about control room's but you have a very valid point,
kind regards,
geoff
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I understand that the Durham Chief Exec was formally senior management in Gregg the Bakers.
Might be a blow for promotion hunters, but the station messes should improve. Out go fry ups and cheese and onion sandwiches, & in come cream eclairs, and those bacon/cheesy croissant things.
So it's not all bad!!
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Don't think many people can complain about a female becoming Chief Executive, as long as that is what she stays. She can never be in a situation to make decisions about operational matters as she has never been in that position.
And no way should she wear "THE" uniform of an firefighter. She has not and never will be a firefighter!
Apart from that good luck to her in her new job when she starts.
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The Lady in Cheshire does wear Uniform of a FF, with the DCFO markings. I believe She is a solicitor, appointed at the height of the disputes, attending all meetings with the CFO. Sharpe move!!
Although I also believe she runs Yoga sessions ats Cheshires HQ during her lunch hour.
Hmmmmmm!!
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Always fancied Yoga. Does she take the class wearing her uniform?
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strange one that about the uniform, seems she had an issue with uniforms bit as soon as she took up dcfo post she promptly pulled one on!!
the issue of 'civilianising posts' seems to get mixed up with a whole variety of issues. i personally am not against anyone who brings benefit to the service so long as it not at the expense of the service, and i dont care 'what they are' its what they can bring that matters, and of course thats where the real debate needs to be held.
dave bev
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Two tier entry is now firmly established in the uK Fire service. Current bottom round entrants who have got to high rank can draw a deep breath that they did so before the middle rounds were removed. So anybody down at the bottom of the ladder can say goodbye to career actualisation and full progression.
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well that starts the debate oily - anyone want to 'air' an alternative view?
dave bev
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Thanks to all who have contributed to the dabate.
Looking at my original post again it might be construed to be anti-feminist, this was not my intention, it just happened that all the appointments I had seen were (well qualified) females, the same comments would apply equally to any male appointments.
I have no issues with the appointment of non-ops to senior management as long as the distinction between operations & administration is firmly established & maintained, the idea of non-ops parading about in uniform with shoulder markings is anathema to me.
Many F&RS have huge budgets which rival very large companies in the private sector & as such require modern management techniques which (in my opinion) are not common in F&RS's & it is in this context that I see a role for management consultants at senior management level.
However as identified by oilyburn this begs the question, "how far up the ladder can a Ff progress without being able to demonstrate managerial experience & competency? A complex question.
Geoff
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I think the point I was trying to make is that there is clearly no question in the ladies ability to perform in her chosen subject, however I think that doing so under the cloak of a DCFO uniform and rank markings is below the belt.
I was also trying to make the point about under what circumstances she was fast tracked into this post.
And I guess to try an answer the question 'how far up the ladder can FF progress without being able to demonstrate managerial experience & competency?' I think employing people like this will make it almost impossible for senior officer postings to be available for developing FF's. Where's the carrott now?
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bravo, i didnt think you were being anti anything other than the demise of the fire service
fireftrm - technically roles dont exist yet for grey book employees but rank markings or even role markings will be worn on non ppe unifrom just because they can - trust me and watch it happen in some brigades. most of us have grown up knowing many who progress to senior positions - if someone knew comes in at a principal manager level and no-one recognises them this would be disastrous to the whole uk f&r service. the drums would bang, the trumpets sound and the whole wall will come tumbling down!
as for lack of or limited /promotion opportunities - its not me selling the family china - it seems absurd that the very same cfo's who are pushing this are expecting and actually getting support from those being subjected to this potential lack of opportunity. where are the voices of those people - i dont see them creating any issues over this - anyone who may be rank and file members of officials of other trade unions/associations care to comment about how they view this issue, or does history already tell us what their organisations view is?
I SAY GIVE TURKEYS THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE FOR CHRISTMAS!!
dave bev
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dave,
I assume that when you write about a new face not being recognised you mean the authority of the rank/role rather than putting a face to a name, a surefire road to conflict if an admin manager interferes in an operational decision.
On another note, fireftrm wrote in the Operational thread (Tyne & Wear average call outs) that Tyne & Wear, Durham & Darlington, Northumnerland & Cleveland are to amalgamate in April 2006, am I being cynical in thinkink that Mrs Johnson (the new CO/CE of D&D FRS) has hit the jackpot & will become the CO/CE of the enlarged authority? What of the CFO's of the constituent brigades, not a bad rate of return for the new breed of management, 4 CFO's = 1 non op CE
Is there an agenda here, based on the above there must be scope for more amalgamations leading to no more than about a dozen 'super' brigades all headed by businessmen/women.
History shows that when suits get involved in a business/organisation their first act is to make it 'leaner & fitter' using management tools such as 'economies of scale, rationalisation & stripping out layers of superflous management'
I hope to be proved wrong but I see troubled waters aheadfor the service I was proud to serve for many years.
Good luck & best wishes to you all.
Geoff
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With regards to Tyne & Wear, durham, Northumberland and Cleveland becoming the north East Fire Service,The regional Assembly vote saw the end of that!
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Bravo
The North East referendum on regional govt did put the amalgamation back on the shelf, however that is not to say that the ODPM could not look to a regional service, the RMBs are still in place and where there is a political will, and a third term mandate who knows............
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recently heard that regionalisation will never happen just a very close working relationship between the 4 brigades. Certainly suits one as they never wanted to join together anyway!
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Devon have had a civillian 'ACO' for ages.
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What reference(s) does this "civilian" ACO hold?
Do they wear 'the' uniform, complete with rank markings?
How do the guys at the sharp end feel about having a 'civvie' ACO?. are they entitled to the courtesy of a salute & to be addressed as 'Sir' ?
Civilian staff have been with us since the dawn of time & I can see no objection to them being called Finance Directors, Human Resource Directors etc, etc, but for the life of me can't understand why they should be given a uniformed rank, in my opinion this dilutes the opportunity for promotion for career firefighters.
geoff
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No , most of them are addressed as ma'am. Anyhow speaking personally I have a penchant for women in uniform.
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Talk about 2 tier entry getting out of control. Suffolk now offer to train any civvy successful DCFO applicant up for operations!
DCFO NVQ?
20/07/2005 Deputy Chief Fire Officer (Assistant Director) Suffolk Fire and Rescue Service
Deputy Chief Fire Officer (Assistant Director)
Up to £80,000 depending on experience
More may be available for an exceptional candidate (pay award pending)
Change is a constant challenge, but it also provides a wealth of opportunities. In Suffolk, we recognise the necessity for dynamism and innovation to make change work for us. We have Public Protection services that we are proud of, but we need to improve continuously and further embed our modernisation programme. Changes to the Fire and Rescue Service will require more attention to be placed on partnership working and prevention activities. This period of transformation and improvement means that we need to respond to a changing environment.
To realise our aims we need an inspirational leader with the experience and skills to bring cultural change to our highly committed workforce, and the insight and confidence to make strong decisions about service improvements. You'll bring imagination, vision and an outstanding record in Public Protection. You'll have the breadth of experience and understanding of public sector priorities to think corporately. You'll show the depth of your commitment to public service by championing our corporate vision and taking full responsibility for initiatives and projects. You will be able to demonstrate your ability to co-ordinate responses to emergency situations. Above all, you must have the resolve to work tirelessly for the well-being and safety of the people of Suffolk.
The post requires an "on-call" arrangement and you will be required to attend operational incidents. If you are not already from a fire service background, appropriate training will be provided.
For an informal discussion, please contact the Director of Public Protection and Chief Fire Officer, Lee Howell, or the current Deputy Chief Fire Officer, Graham Smith on 01473 588969.
For a recruitment pack please telephone Suffolk County Council Recruitment (08456 014412) or email recruitment@csduk.com - please quote reference JM436.
CLOSING DATE: 20 JULY 2005
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geoff, saluting - where have you been!!!
there is at least one brigade where everyone calls the cfo by his first name - interesting times - what will happen to cfoa (cacfoa) as you prob know it when all the cfo's have no fire service background - how will they offer professional advice on technical issues, of course some will cope pretty well because thay may have 'other experiences' that give them the ability - but some others?
heard a rumour that one cfo has retired and joined another brigade as a non uniformed dep
anyone confirm (from middle england to a bit more southerly england is the only clue i can offer)
oily, interesting but not new. the issue is how long will the development programme be, what happens in the interim while they are on development and working within role?
interesting the advert doesnt say what will happen if the individual doesnt reach 'competency' in terms of completion and application of development programme learning.
i hope non uniformed cfo's/principle officers who havent progressed through the structure and therefore gained practical skill application are NOT being set up for prosecution under manslaughter/corporate killing - leading a fire brigade IS different than managing a business!
i only hope for all concerned that any development process properly equips people for their role, whatever their background/position in the structure
dave bev
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Suffolk have the answer (DCFO vacency)
Quote:
"The post requires an 'on call' arrangement and you will be required to attend operational incidents.If you are not already from a fire service background, appropriate training will be given"
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Yep no experience necessary to take up an operational post that normally comes after about 20 years service, well apart from Suffolks current CFO. Come to think of it he jumped from ACFO to CFO. You see Suffolk can do it better than you yes they can. They can get a civvy up to speed operationally via a bit of training. Probably a NVQ in DCFO?
Frightening. But thats two tier entry taken to its logical conclusion!
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Can the CEO of Marconi assemble a printed circuit board. No? Bah more of that two tier entry business. No good will come of it, mark my words Mr Hudson. None of their computers will work.
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but would the ceo of marconi be making 'safety critical' decisions and instructing (cos we dont do ordering much nowadays, except in some brigades!) staff how to do their job?
i dont have any problem with ANY competent person making decsions appropriate to their competence - (but simulation is not acceptable to demonstrate competence for this unit!!)
are marconi as solvent as they once were colin? if theyre not (and many others aswell) wonder how that happened then, did their managers lose their hands on ability i wonder and concentrated purely on the beans and countermeasures of the wonderous world of human resource management?
dave bev
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The CEO does not advise on safety in the factory floor Davey. And when you get wise and become a capitalist and thereafter CFO of Essex (oh no it will be the whole of the east of England by then) you will not be telling the troops which way to point the hoses either I suspect. But even when you are that illustrious, there will still be a palce ofr you at our Xmas party.
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The CFO's that I have met are all quite happy to talk authoratively about things that they don't understand. So theres no need for any special experience.
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Working for your government mates is making you jaundiced Bri.
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I wonder how far down the rank structure a brigade could go on employing 'civilians', before it would have to employ an operational firefighter.
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Jaundiced moi?
Ok truth is I think that Chiefs Should have operational experience. If you have a non op Chief Exec then you will need a Operational Chief to work with them - One job for the price of two?
I once worked for a local authority who apointed a "generic" manager to be chief engineer. They came a cropper when asked to attend a meeting with coleagues from other boroughs for a a bit of joined up highway planning.
The individual involved didn't understand a word of what was said and stood down from the post a short time later.
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A happy story of ordinary country folk, Bri.
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colin, but the cfo does make cs decisions and corporate responsibility is part of managements right to manage (or can we forget that right cos it doesnt suit?)
wee b, not all cfo's are daft, in fact very few of them are. they do however have opinions on a wide variety of subjects, some of them valid opinions. the trick is only listen to the ones who do know what theyre speaking about - a bit like consultants and union reps really !
dave bev
mark - even operational firefighters were 'civilians' before joining the fire service?
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Anyway, if I get a job as a CFO, can I join the brothers and have The Rack represent me.
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consider yourself 'toast for the rack' mr todd!
dave bev
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Because I am crisp, solid, dependable and of vlaue to every household in the land?
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Dave, you are so right - filtering opinions is what I do best.
well that's my opinion anyway.
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Never have I read such arrogant, ill informed and sexist c..p!
Shropshire FRS has a non operational ACO....................and we are very proud of her and the improvements she has brought to our Brigade!
The person concerned can most definitely speak for herself, and may well be offended that I have chosen to respond. But I have to tell you that the dialogue I have read here sends shivers up my spine!
All of you (including you dave b and colin) should be ashamed.
As for; uniforms, saluting, blah, blah, wearing BA, blah, pitching ladders, blah, 20 years operational experience, blah, blah, rank markings, blah, blah,.................get real guys!
The comments regarding promotion opportunities being stifled by these 'CIVIES' (funny, I thought we were all civilians?) beggars belief! I didn’t realise that the FRS was here to provide convenient non competitive promotional opportunities for us 'old smoke eaters'?
Explain to me what you believe best qualifies someone for the role of Head of Human Resources;
> University degree and an abundance of other professional qualifications in HR.
> Proven success in managing HR teams.
> Substantial experience at strategic level in HR management.
Or
20 years experience eating smoke?
GROW UP PLEASE!
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I offer my sincerest apologies to all reference my early post about the former CEO of Greggs Bakery now holding a senior position within a UK FRS
Whilst I thought I was fully informed and up to date about the 1001 recent changes to the UK FRS including r2r, CPD, IPDS, RRO, IRMP and all that goes with it, I must of missed the ODPM's instruction banning a sense of humour. (or does this ruling only apply to Shropshire?)
My comments about cream buns were, therefore, totally inappropriate and I take full responsibility for my rather light-hearted approach toward this matter. I will if necessary, offer my resignation if required.
I blame Colin and Dave Bev, who have led me up this path with their constant amusing political banter. Like the man said, grow up boys, this is the 21st century.
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1. Michael, Noting that you are new as a registrant and that you have never read such sexist arrogant etc etc c***, all I can advise is that you stick around, and your sheltered life in respect of these things will be changed forever.
2. Trust me, I AM ashamed that I find a red under the bed like Davey amusing, articulate and very intelligent, but please be assured I am gradually converting him to capitalism, but please tell no one or his party card will be withdrawn.
3. To be honest, I really coudlnt give a fig who runs an F&RS, nor did I think I implied that I did.
4. Messey: Humour was banned in Dear Chief Officer Circular Number 94584357804358. Try to do more CPD. You will find a copy in the brigade library. You will find the library located in a small single storey building at Southwark. You will recognize it because it has two doors, one with a pic of a wee man on it, the other with a pic of a wee woman on it. I think that this is to indicate that the stalls where the I/Os do most of their reading are open to all, regardless of sex, age , religious persuasion, sexual preference, favourite fetish, deviant sexual practice, favourite newspaper, politics or hairstyle..
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colin, thanks for your kind words that will no doubt keep me warm in the chills of winter as i struggle to keep my kin from the ravages of the capitalist warmongering state. if i become a capitalist will i still be allowed to sing the red flag, whose colour is truly a deepest red?
mike , i note your comments though i would ask that you refrain from portraying me as sexist. i admit to being ill informed over many issues, particularly on the specifics of your non ops ACO. however i would ask that you actually read my posts before offering your arrogant stance on this topic. i have attached most of them below - some i havent cos they are direct answers to questions, but if you think i may have been ill informed in my response then feel free to highlight exactly where. i apologise in advance for using capitals to explain my thought process - but i cant work out how to enter italics etc DOH!
strange one that about the uniform, seems she had an issue with uniforms bit as soon as she took up dcfo post she promptly pulled one on!! ------- AM I ILL INFORMED OR IS THIS FACT?. THIS RELATES DIRECT TO AN INDIVIDUAL AND I AM HAPPY TO WITHDRAW MY COMMENT AND APOLOGISE IF IT IS NOT FACTUAL. I DONT CARE WHETHER BRIGADES HAVE UNIFORMS OR NOT - I DO HAVE AN ISSUE WHERE A PRINCIPAL OFFICER WHO WAS TOTALLY AGAINST THEM SUDDENLY APPEARS TO START TO WEAR ONE! (I WILL WITHDRAW MY DIRECT COMMENT IF THE INFORMATION I HAVE MAKES ME ILL INFORMED)
the issue of 'civilianising posts' seems to get mixed up with a whole variety of issues. i personally am not against anyone who brings benefit to the service so long as it not at the expense of the service, and i dont care 'what they are' its what they can bring that matters, and of course thats where the real debate needs to be held - SO DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS COMMENT AT ALL? OR AM I ARROGANT IN SUGGESTING THAT I SUUPORT ANYONE WHO BRINGS BENEFIT TO THE SERVICE SO LONG AS ITS NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE SERVICE - DOES THIS MAKE ME 'ANTI NON UNIFORMED OR NON OPERATIONAL' - I HATE THOSE PHRASES AND WILL USE THE PHRASE ' THOSE NOT EMPLOYED UNDER GREY BOOK CONDITIONS OF SERVICE'
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well that starts the debate oily - anyone want to 'air' an alternative view? - PERHAPS I WAS HOPING TO BE BETTER INFORMED? AND START A DEBATE. I WOULD SUGGEST THOUGH FOR THIS DEBATE TO BE WORTHWHILE ANY COMMENTS MADE DURING THIS DEBATE SHOULD BE ACCEPTED AS A VALID VIEWPOINT EVEN IF YOU FUNDAMENTALLY DISAGREE - ITS ABOUT READING AND UNDERSTANDING AN ALTERNATIVE VIEWPOINT AND TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHAT INFLUENCED THAT VIEWPOINT INITIALLY.
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as for lack of or limited /promotion opportunities - its not me selling the family china - it seems absurd that the very same cfo's who are pushing this are expecting and actually getting support from those being subjected to this potential lack of opportunity. where are the voices of those people - i dont see them creating any issues over this - anyone who may be rank and file members of officials of other trade unions/associations care to comment about how they view this issue, or does history already tell us what their organisations view is?
I SAY GIVE TURKEYS THE OPPORTUNITY TO VOTE FOR CHRISTMAS!! ------
THIS RELATES DIRECTLY TO POSTS WHERE GREY BOOK CONDITIONS APPLY - AM I SO WRONG IN WANTING TO PROTECT JOBS AND OPPORTUNITIES THAT ATTRACT GREY BOOK CONDITIONS OF SERVICE? IF OTHER POSITIONS/POSTS ARE REQUIRED THEY SHOULD NOT BE AT THE EXPENSE OF EXISTING POSTS - IS THAT SO WRONG?
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geoff, saluting - where have you been!!!
there is at least one brigade where everyone calls the cfo by his first name - interesting times - what will happen to cfoa (cacfoa) as you prob know it when all the cfo's have no fire service background - how will they offer professional advice on technical issues, of course some will cope pretty well because thay may have 'other experiences' that give them the ability - but some others?
THE PHRASE ' SOME OF THEM WILL COPE PRETTY WELL ETC. MAY SUGGEST TO YOU THAT I RECOGNISE THE SKILLS SOME (THOUGH I HOPE ALL) WILL BRING TO THE SERVICE - THERE ARE MANY TECHNICAL ISSUES THAT I WOULDNT BE ASKING THE ADVICE OF A CFO (OR A UNION REP FOR THAT MATTER!) OVER.
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i hope non uniformed cfo's/principle officers who havent progressed through the structure and therefore gained practical skill application are NOT being set up for prosecution under manslaughter/corporate killing - leading a fire brigade IS different than managing a business!
i only hope for all concerned that any development process properly equips people for their role, whatever their background/position in the structure
YOU MAY NOTE THE PHRASE 'LEADING IS DIFFERENT THAN MANAGING' IT WAS INTENTIONAL! IT SHOULD BE APPARENT THAT I AM TRYING TO SUPPORT THOSE APPOINTED AND TO ENSURE IF THEY ARE ASKED/REQUIRED TO UNDERTAKE AN OPERATIONAL COMMITTMENT (OR ANY ACTIVITY) THAT THEY ARE PROPERLY EQUIPED/TRAINED BEFORE THEY DO SO. - IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK? AM I SUGGESTING THAT THEY SHOULDNT BE UNDERTAKING ANY SPECIFIC ACTIVITY ?
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i dont have any problem with ANY competent person making decsions appropriate to their competence - (but simulation is not acceptable to demonstrate competence for this unit!!)
THIS WAS IN SPECIFC REFERENCE TO OPERATIONAL ACTIVITY BUT THE SENTIMENT IS THE SAME - I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ANY (THAT WAS IN BLOCK CAPITALS IN MY ORIGINAL RESPONSE FOR A REASON!) COMPETENT PERSON MAKING DECSIONS APPORPRIATE TO THEIR COMPETENCE - PERHAPS THAT WOULD SEEM TO SUGGEST THAT I ACTUALLY SUPPORT THE APPOINTMENT OF SPECIALIST HR PEOPLE INTO SPECIALIST HR ROLES TO ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY READ WHAT I HAD WRITTEN AND COULD THEREFORE BE 'WELL INFORMED' ABOUT MY POSITION!
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colin, but the cfo does make cs decisions and corporate responsibility is part of managements right to manage (or can we forget that right cos it doesnt suit?) - THIS RELATED TO CRTICAL SAFETY DECISONS ONLY BEING MADE BY THOSE COMPETENT TO DO SO - DOES THIS MAKE ME ANTI ANYONE OTHER THAN THOSE NOT COMPETENT TO MAKE DECSIONS - I CANT BELIEVE YOU WOULD SUPPORT CS DECSIONS BEING MADE BY SOMEONE NOT COMPETENT TO DO SO - AGAIN I DIDNT MAKE ANY REFERENCE TO WHETHER 'GREY BOOK EMPLOYEES' OR NOT.
wee b, not all cfo's are daft, in fact very few of them are. they do however have opinions on a wide variety of subjects, some of them valid opinions. the trick is only listen to the ones who do know what theyre speaking about - a bit like consultants and union reps really !
DO I NEED TO EXPLAIN?
mark - even operational firefighters were 'civilians' before joining the fire service? - DOES THIS HELP? 'CIVILIANS' IN COMMAS WAS INTENDED TO SUPPORT JUST YOUR POINT THAT WE ARE ALL CIVLIANS AND THOSE ON GREY BOOK CONDITIONS NOW, WERE NOT BEFORE THEY WERE APPOINTED ONTO THEM!
as for the ' FRS being here to provide convenient non competitive promotional opportunities for us 'old smoke eaters'? - a really good change management phrase i might add, i am dissapointed that you felt that the previous appointments and promotions regs etc were not competitive - i certainly found them to be competitive in my experience. perhaps you have an experience of being promoted as a matter of convenience?
i am pleased that you are supporting your HR person - whatever conditions they are employed under and agree that its about competence to do the job, (not qualifications which you seem to think are a sure sign that someone can 'do the job') - i also agree that 20 years smoke eating (you do use a lot of emotive and 'headline' statements appropriate to change management dont you!!) might not enable someone to demonstrate competence in HR, but then again surely its the individual and their personal skills. knowledge and attributes that matter, NOT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE PREVIOUSLY a point you make so well that it competely destroys your position. there may be some 20 year smoke eaters who are more than capable - what about retained personnel whose main occupation might be in that very field of expertise. would 20 years smoke eating exclude them from appointment, i could go on ........
in finishing i would like to make it clear - i personally am not against anyone who brings benefit to the service so long as it not at the expense of the service, and i dont care 'what they are' its what they can bring that matters. i dont have any problem with ANY competent person making decisions appropriate to their competence. if other posts are identified as being required within a brigade then they should be posts addiditonal to the establishment and not at the expense of the current establishment. and i would finish by saying that any non grey book employees SHOULD be paid at the equivalent rate of pay within the brigade - work of equal value should attract equivalent pay, and call on someone who is so obvously well informed within Shropshire to raise the issue and strive to ensure that those staff that includes those who may not be heads of departments are paid a salary equivalent to grey book staff where the work is of equal value. then i will start to believe the fire service is a progressive organisation
dave bev
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And thats all you have to say is it Dave. You could of put a bit more time into it to kick off the debate.
Yes your facts referencing the DCFO within a certain FRS are correct.
Need to come back to this as I didn't have time to read all as I'm just going through the door. Interesting stuff!!
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smiffy - you wag!
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Wag........me......no your honour
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Davey, I didnt quite catch all of that. Could you possibly say it again more slowly, but with a bit more detail this time.
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mr todd, im sure you have better things to do.
To criticize the people's shortcomings is necessary, . . . but in doing so we must truly take the stand of the people and speak out of whole-hearted eagerness to protect and educate them. To treat comrades like enemies is to go over to the stand of the enemy.
from the chairman himself
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Chairman of what?
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chairman mao - but then again comrade, you knew that!!
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It’s interesting to note Dave that you assume my comments were purely a response to your contribution to the ‘debate’. Whilst your emails are indeed prolific, you might have noticed that other people had submitted comment too. The main thrust of my response was to those who appear to assume that ‘spite’ is fine as long as it is dished out to those of executive rank. As a representative of the FBU I just thought you might have noted that and rather than joining in, actually discouraged just rubbish.
I note you comment in another debate I dared to ask a question in.
Thanks Dave, your sarcasm becomes you.
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Take these people's names, Davey, and get The Rack to have them re-educated at a special secret location for 15 years come the revolution.
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mike - your comment re ive never heard such ........ etc and followed up by suggesting i should be ashamed of myself was a clear comment in response to my contributions to the debate - otherwise why did you say it?
your response then prompted me to reply in such a way to demonstrate that i didnt believe i had done anything i needed to be ashamed of by highlighting my comments, to which you have demonstrated your ability to use sarcasm in the way it is intended to be used in terms of noting how 'prolific' my posts are!
if the main thrust of your response was as you said then why didnt you make it clear? why did you bring an individual into the discussion, and worse actually identify the person to everyone - could you not have built an argument around your principles? as i state in other responses - you like to use 'headlines' and throwaway comments -and you have again not failed yourself in this latest response - 'as a representative of the FBU' - good one. in fact very good. when i post on here i do so as dave beverley NOT as an FBU rep (sorry for all my readers who have read that enough times!) - but of course its a lot easier to have a pop at me by using the phrase you use. its such an easy comment. much easier than just saying, dave i dont think you should be taking part - oh and by the way nobody should be posting replies on this topic either oops - ive just done it aswell havent i!!!
you go on, - ' as a etc ...... i i thought you might have noted that' - good piece of sarcasm there in that throwaway comment aswell - youre really at good at those arent you?
i refer to my post on the 27th may - i dont care what people are - its what they bring? that clear enough for you? does that not appear that i just might be trying to discourage people in the way they think? but then again no headlines in there, no opportunity to express your indignation and tell the world how good someone is - cos they wouldnt know just how good they are would they unless someone made reference to them publicly? i'll bet the indivudual in question is more interested in doing their job properly than being held up publicly as a role model for others (especially without being asked aswell!) - hmmmmm i wonder just what the real 'thrust' of your post actually was?
dave bev
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Dave, can't be bothered any more. good night.
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So, its goodnight from him and its goodnight from him.
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Oh Mike you give in too easily!!
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Chairman Meiow? Now there was a chav chap with plenty of bling.
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Hereford & Worcester Fire and Rescue Service have today appointed Lucy Phillips as there new Deputy CFO/Deputy Chief Exec. Lucy was the Corperate Director with H&WFRS