FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Jon M on June 10, 2005, 06:21:59 PM
-
Hi to everyone, nice to be back
Wholetime firefighters in my Service have now taken up retained duties.
in terms of rest periods between finishing the 2 days and registering for retained duty at night likewise being on retained duties prior to go onto nights, night shift and between nights and after last night shift
how much time should be allowed between shifts before they commence retained duties
has anyone undertaken a risk assessment
Regards to all
Jon
-
And if they have did they include the time that persons should be free to rest before commencing retained duties IRRESPECTIVE of their main employment?
-
Hi
I am running retained in my rota days.
I have to have eleven hours before and after each shift (working time directive) which doesnt leave much time to actually run retained.
I cant go on the run between second day and first night cos you cant using the eleven hour rule.
But its ok for any of my colleagues to get knackered doing joinery or plumbing because the brigade dont know about it
GO FIGURE?
-
As someone not in the service, I find it quite worrying that your colleuges are turning up for work "knackered".
There ought to be a system of ensuring employees of our emergency services are not in this condition. Imagine how much money they must be making if they are busy plumbers!
There was a debate in the House of Commons yesterday about health service reforms and they were arguing that junior doctors were asking to be exempt from the working time directives so they could improve patient care!
-
chris - another item in the 'modernisation' agenda that really doesnt bear scrutiny - the mp's at the 'top' really must wonder what the hell is going on and why they were told that all these great plans would actually improve the service dramatically. sure there has been and there always will be improvements - thats the very nature of the beast, and the analagies of eating elephants a bit at a time and battleships being manoevered and turned slowly are really laughable when taken too seriously.
nice piece in the papers also today re ambulance attendance times not being met - of course the ministers were told the fire service doesnt need attendance times, and we know why that was!
at least the welsh assembly have seen through the shroud waved by some - though not all - chief fire officers, mind you they are also trying to get hard wired smoke alarms into every household - another plus for the welsh assembly.
and now we have more and more firefighters working additional shifts - watch out for the issues re them taking early retirement in the years to come - oh, theyve done that one aswell - bit crafty eh?
need i go on ...........
-
. Imagine how much money they must be making if they are busy plumbers!
!
and how much money someone makes working EXTRA hours is your business how???
is it the fatigue that bothers you or the money?
-
the laughable thing is as a retainer I can (in theory) do a 12hr day at work and get a shout 15mins after I get home then be out till the early hours before going back to work the following morning! shouldn't it be down to the firefighter using his common sense and discretion about whether he is fit to carry out the duties of which may be called upon him and if he doesn't think so then let someone else ride the pump?
-
andy, the problem is that if 'he' is out all night and is professional enough to say they cannot respond for duty, whole time appliances may be placed off the run. i accept in this that there is no difference in any type of appliance being unavailable, but there should be some capacity in any system to allow this to happen, i suspect the capacity in the retained system may be higher than that in a whole time system in these circumstances, though my confidence in such a system being sustainable indefinitley is less than i would like it to be.
dave bev
-
When I say he (or she) should'nt ride the pump I am referring to it as a retainer baring in mind that when the systems go down you should therotically have enough turn out to more than man the appliance (ie. some will be left behind) if you have just finished a shift in your main employment (whether that be working in a shop or as a WT) and don't think you are capable of carrying out the nessercary then don't ride, let someone else, I am not suggesting that you go out all night as a retainer then not 'turn out' in your main employment therefore I don't think this should have a baring on whether a WT pump turns out or not
Does this make sense or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
I don't mean to be in any way disrespectful to any of our female collegues by refering to FF's as males it's just figure of speech, I have the greatest of respect for them
-
last point first - i understand and in no way believe you intended to be offensive - i only wish it would come natural to everyone - including me!
second point last - i understand what youre saying and it amounts to the same thing - not working past or even up to a position where fatigue could set in. it doesnt matter whether the work due is retained, wholetime or non fire service.
the point i was trying to make (obviously badly) is that if an individual is missing from their employment it isnt fair on the employer if it could have been managed in such a way that this was an exceptional occurence and not 'reasonably forseeable' - in the case of wholetime an appliance could go off the run, in other industry/commerce etc - the consequences could be just as important to the employer
dave bev
-
I understand your point and think I may have been making the same point.
What I am trying to say (and probably not in a very clear way) is that every FF whether they be WT or RT should prioritise themselves and thier time (as far is reasonably practicable) so they don't have an adverse affect on thier main employment, it is after all these employers who make the whole retained system possible.
Tonight for example, I finished work at 6 then got a shout at about 6.45 on arriving at the station (2nd in) I learnt that it was a RTC persons trapped now from that I think it is reasonable for me to assume that I would not be out throughout the night, therefore it wouldn't have any effect on my employment in the morning, if it had been a Barn Fire for example I would have expected it to be protracted therefore may have opted not to ride,there were 5 other FF's who turned up and were left behind I could of given my place upto one of those. I realise that this isn't possible all the time say when crew levels are not sufficent or when for whatever reason you are detained for longer than you anticipate.
What I don't think is right (and I have come accross it) is when you get WT complaining about being out on an all nighter because they will be tired for work in the morning!
-
As a wholetime F/f and a retained F/f my brigade conditions me to the following:
12 hours free of call before a day shift - so off call at 9pm
and
5 hours free of call before a night shift - so off call at 1pm
I work at a busy w/t station and a fairly busy retained station and in the last few years there are only a couple of occasions where I have gone into w/t work feeling exceptionally tired. It is usually the other way round when coming off nights and being knackered in which case I have booked free of call for a few hours.
As a retained crew we only generally stay out for 4 hours before getting a relief crew and how many jobs take 4 hours if we are honest not that many.
As mentioned in a previous post it is normally the plumbers/painters/kitchen fitters that are usually yawning first!!
-
I have read these comments with some interest and I personally thing that it is irrelevant whether you believe it to be fair or not that others who don't work for the FRS abide by different rules to you. If you work wholetime for the fire service and then work as a retained firefighter, they are obviously aware of it.
As your main and secondary employer, they are legally obliged to abide by the working time directives, they can't pretend that you haven't been at work because they know that you have.
With regards to other retained firefighters coming straight on the run from work, I'm sure that they are all informed of their own obligations under the working time directives.
-
I'm a retained firefighter for one brigade and a full time inspecting officer for another.
I have had to opt out of the working time directive and therefore the minimum rest period between undertaking both duties doesn't apply to me.
I accept firefighters have a saftey critial job to do... and many of you are horrified that they are undertaking secondary duties and turning up to work knackered.
But there are other risks we take in every day life which may become compounded by being tired. Driving for example, and this issue doesn't just apply to firefighters but anyone who undertakes secondary employment for any of the emergency services, or any other job which may mean people are called out during their rest periods.
If all retained firefighters followed the working time directive to the letter Im afraid to say that there wouldn't be a retained fire service!
-
HI.
I work the RDS at my station and make it my own responsablity to manage, from working at my full time job and the cover I give,as do all of us.
If I get home from work knaackered and that this will afect my safety to ride the pump I ( book off ) as do the full time retained at the station if they have had a busy day / night.
It's up to you to manage your own health and safety at work and the safety of others.
-
'If all retained firefighters followed the working time directive to the letter Im afraid to say that there wouldn't be a retained fire service!'
or probably a wholetime one either!
I am not sure, but as emergency workers, if we have opted out of the WTD, are we therefore not exempt from the rules?I only stopped WT /retained 2 years ago, and my brigade set no limits on my hours, just to manage it myself to be fit for duty-but if I had been up all night with my retained hat on, they would not penalise me if I said I could not turn in on my wholetime duty the next day.The brigade accepted this as it was keen to get more RT and WT Retained firefighters.When I was 42 hour WT, and called out during those hours, the service still paid me my retained rate-effectively the brigade was paying me twice for the same time-but crucially-different roles.The brigade manages the retained crews by organising reliefs-doesn't work perfectly but it is few and far between.Again the brigade was happy to do this .
It is no different now when I do FDS- a 78 hour week.If I have been up all night on a call out then I just book myself unavailable for the next day-regardless of my daytime work commitments- and have done on a few occaisions.I would suggest that it is not a real problem(in my experience) in general, but of course that is not to say that there are not many busy retained stations.The system is not perfect, but acceptable-and is not viable to do it any other way without huge increase in cost(which the government will not allow) or recruiting more people(and they are not exactly applying in droves).
I think it will either take a court case or a change in the governments view to see any changes.
-
Absolutely right pip.
The retained service is suffering an all time low in recruitment primarily as rural locations where many retained sations are located have such high house prices.
But anyway...back to the heart of this debate... This is really the old chestnut about a man / woman being free to do what they want in their own time. For instance there isn't anything stopping me from going clubbing till 3 .00am on a week night and turning up to work the next day.
Clearly if my work suffered as a result my employers would have something to say but thats a seperate issue. The fact remains that theres nothing in law to stop me from going clubbing or stopping awake all night doing a jig saw puzzle so why should it be any different for me deciding to do retained duty?
Ok doing a jigsaw puzzle is less physically straining but i think you get my point!
-
Pip you are right. The Fire Service is outside the scope of the essential parts of the Working Time Regs. Regualtion 18 says that the some of the regulations do not apply to certain specific services, ie civil protection services that inevitably conflict with the provision of the Regulations.
Specifically this exempts these services from the 48 hr week, the limit of 8 hours for a night shift, the limit of 8 hours for heavy or specially hazardous work. The need for regular health assessments for night work, the need for the employer to move the person if the night work is producing specific health problems. The need to provide rest breaks, the need for a daily rest of not less than 11 hours, uninterupted rest of 24 hours during the week etc.
So a retained firefighter would be subject to the Working Time Regulations whilst they are doing their normal job but as soon as they go on a callout the WTR goes out of the window. I am sure that someone could argue that the same would happen for retained drill nights.
-
If you opt out of the working time directive you have to be carefull your employer doesnt use this against you,also as a retained firefighter you only put in what hours you can,say a brigade needs cover from 18.00 until 06.00 then you can put in to do 12 hours or part of the shift,the only thing you have to remember is to switch off your pager when you have done your hours,you will find your family will frown upon you if you forget as it will activate and you wont ignore it,the retained firefighters do an excellent job as well as the full timers and I am sure local comunities do appreciate them.
-
I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Lucky, it's all very well booking off retained duty but if you don't switch your alerter off and it goes off it's very difficult to ignore it, regardless of time of day or night, I haven't ever been able to! I don't think there is any dispute that we (by which I mean the retained) do a valuable job which is appreciated by the community,a representation of this is that my station takes a Father Christmas float out some evenings in December to collect for the Ben Fund, this year we raised almost £2500 in my small town!!
Pip,
Booking off duty form a day shift (whatever that may be doing) having spent all night with your Retained cap on is all well and good if it's an option you have, unfortunately for many retainers it just isn't!! I'm sure I wouldn't have a day job for very long if I rang in 1st thing in the morning to say I wasn't coming into work because I'd been up all night too many times especially when I rely on that same employer to allow me to just drop everything and run every time my alerter goes off in 'his' time!!
-
Well said Andy I certainly couldnt stay off work if I have been out on shouts for most of the night,which is why I book off at 5 in the morning instead of 6,If I book off at 6 I could be late for work,while my employers gave permission for me to be retained they make it clear it ust not interfere with my day duties.Well done on the Christmas collection..
-
I think you may have hit the nail on the head there Lucky, it's all very well booking off retained duty but if you don't switch your alerter off and it goes off it's very difficult to ignore it, regardless of time of day or night, I haven't ever been able to! I don't think there is any dispute that we (by which I mean the retained) do a valuable job which is appreciated by the community,a representation of this is that my station takes a Father Christmas float out some evenings in December to collect for the Ben Fund, this year we raised almost £2500 in my small town!!
Pip,
Booking off duty form a day shift (whatever that may be doing) having spent all night with your Retained cap on is all well and good if it's an option you have, unfortunately for many retainers it just isn't!! I'm sure I wouldn't have a day job for very long if I rang in 1st thing in the morning to say I wasn't coming into work because I'd been up all night too many times especially when I rely on that same employer to allow me to just drop everything and run every time my alerter goes off in 'his' time!!
Yes, I appreciate that a soley retained firefighter does not easily have that option-which means that it is more important that you consider how long you are out at night etc.The i/c should be prompting for reliefs-There is no reason why a R/T FF should be out all night-it just requires good management, from the persomnnel involved, control and service policyHowever that is not too say there are not difficulties in achieving this.If you are up all night-how safe are you to operate vehicles etc the next day?These are all akward questions that have yet to be addressed, but they can no longer be swept under the carpet.A few years ago there was a successful prosecution ( and jail time) against a driver who fell asleep and caused a train crash-different circumstances of why he was tired-but the risk was the same.How long before it happens to a retained member?
I can remember many times when I was at home looking after my children and being frustrated I could not respond when my alerter went off-I decided to switch it off during those times-it made it a bit easier to quell the frustration.
Please dont think I am retained bashing-having done it myself and working in a rural brigade I know how committed people are-but I think that is taken advantage of and little has been done in the past to rectify this.For a number of reasons there will have to be changes in the way the retained service is operated (long hours,poor/limited recruitment)-too much overstretching of limited resources will not be able to continue-already stations are being closed and alternative crewing are options being taken up.