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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: shaunmckeever on December 19, 2010, 11:01:45 AM
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I am carrying out a little bit of research to try and identify if fatalities have occurred in corridors as a result of fires in hotel bedrooms where cold smoke seals have not been fitted and where smoke detection is installed in the bedrooms. Not sure if anyone can help here but if you can I'd be grateful.
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I don't think you will find any.
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ditto
and you cannot guarantee that if smoke seals were fitted that they would of worked properly. I would stop now if I were you
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ditto
and you cannot guarantee that if smoke seals were fitted that they would of worked properly. I would stop now if I were you
I remember reading on here that someone was prosecuted under the Order with one issue being that the RP did not fit smoke seals on fire doors, not that the doors had to be capable of withstanding the passage of smoke at ambient temperatures.
Two different things.
I have seen plenty of double doors fitted with smoke seals but you could drive a bus between the leaves. They were fitted with smoke seals - so box ticked.
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They are starting to be something that really gets my back up.
They work fine in test situations but im pretty much sure you can speak to FFs and they will say that in a live fire that they do not activate as they are supposed to, thus leaving gaps, thus not improving the resistance.
As far as I can see there is no legal requirement for them and yet it seems to be one of the most commonly requested things with threat of prosecution if not installed!
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They are starting to be something that really gets my back up.
They work fine in test situations but im pretty much sure you can speak to FFs and they will say that in a live fire that they do not activate as they are supposed to, thus leaving gaps, thus not improving the resistance.
As far as I can see there is no legal requirement for them and yet it seems to be one of the most commonly requested things with threat of prosecution if not installed!
Piglet:
The OP was specifically querying cold smoke seals, not intumescent seals (which is what I think you’re talking about)? Cold smoke seals will work very well if properly fitted and maintained but, in my experience, they very rarely are. I would, personally speaking, be amazed if this had ever caused a fatality, but I have no hard data to back that opinion up.
You’re right inasmuch as there is no specific ‘legal requirement’ for either fire or smoke seals on doorsets. Generally speaking, though, both cold smoke seals & intumescent seals are necessary parts of an installation designed to meet the safety performance specifications defined in the relevant National Guidance (British Standards, AD-B, Scottish Technical Standards or whatever), so they cannot be simply ignored, whatever ones’ personal opinion or their efficacy is. As generally accepted good industry practice any Court would be likely to regard those documents as the ‘benchmark’ of acceptability & compliance with the Law.
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You are right im am querying the effectiveness of intumescent strips.
It has been argued about before on here so i will leave it there :-X
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Thanks for the replies so far. It is pretty much what I thought but some Fire Authorities will have their fun and games and still insist on them without providing and good reason. I'd be interested in knowing how Hilton are getting on with their case.
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How about looking at it from this point of view:
How many lives have been potentially saved by strips and seals over the years? i.e. How many hotels have had fires where, due primarily to strips and seals, the fire has been very much contained to the room of origin?
Just because there are no deaths attributed directly to the lack of them, does not mean they do not have their place in fire safety provisions.
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I believe the containment can be attributed to the affectiveness of the fire doors rather than the strips and seals.
Im not a fire fighter but if any are reading this can they enlighten us on how many they have seen FULLY activated after a fire?
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Piglet
I can only count a handful of times where I've seen intumescent strips activated following a blaze.
I have on countless occassions seen where cold smoke seals have done their job and prevented the passage of smoke from the room of fire origin onto adjacent means of escape.
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Thanks Midland Fire.
I wasnt trying to trip anyone up but im geniunely interested.
So Cold Smoke seals gets a big thumbs up but intumescent strips do not
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Hi Piglet
I put my head above the parapet sometime ago about intumescent seals and got lambasted.
I do see the need for intumescent seals in some situations, but I personally question just how effective they really are based on the amount of times I've seen them activate.
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Thats exactly where im coming from too.
If you have something so widely asked for it should be proven, it real situations that it works. Forget the fact that it is cheap to install so its worth the "risk".
Im more of the opinion that if it is not working, it needs to be redeveloped/designed until it does. Its a good idea but it doesn't seem to work (from what I have been told)
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Check out http://fire.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4696.0 a lengthy discussion on this topic.
I don't believe you can come to any conclusions considering real fire situations it has the be a scientific test under a controlled conditions i.e. British Standard.
My interpretation of the above thread is a well fitting fire door (very important) or substantial door, with out intumescent seals, should give you 20mins, plus the time it takes for the fire to totally involve the room and 30mins plus with seals. So it depends how long you require the door to hold a fire in check.
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In my opinion the use of intumescent strips in most scenarios will only be considered for building protection. In some cases they may also be used to support life safety too.
But in any case, for building protection, or otherwise, Ive rarely ever seen them activate, and Im guessing if you asked most fire professionals they would tell you the same thing.
Do they actually serve a credible purpose in real life, outside of the test labs?
(I await a very stiff talking to from Auntie Lin)!
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I too have very rarely seen intumescent strips activate and if they do it is usually at very high heat fires where the door is very badly damaged. Smoke seals on the other hand (or even 25mm stops) will prevent (reduce) a great deal of smoke (and other gas) spread.
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I too have very rarely seen intumescent strips activate and if they do it is usually at very high heat fires where the door is very badly damaged.
Shirley that's the point when the fire reaches those high temperatures and begins to pass between the fire door and the frame that's when the intumescent strips activate and prevent the passage of flame for a further period of time which I claim to be about 10 mins.
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Tom
Graphite Intumescent Strips activate at about 120 degrees C, Silica at about 180.
As has been said, the heat at the door face must be very high as of course you only have a 3mm gap between frame and door ;D
A more important discussion would be the merits of brush against neoprene strip seals
davo
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I would say a more important discussion would be to campaign to the manufacturers to improve the reliability of the strips.
Im tempted to do some digging. It could be a great product but its not doing whats claimed.
If they are just designed to activate at very high temps surely we are just talking about property protection NOT life saftey. So why are so many FSOs and FRAs asking for them as standard?
It doesn't matter that they are cheap and easy to install, they are still not effective.
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Davo
I am not a fan of the neoprene seals, I find numerous locations where they are damaged so easily and in many cases the occupier removes the damaged seal completely when they are hanging leaving the intumescent strip in place. Recently undertook a risk assessment on a new office that had only been occupied for two months and numerous neoprene seals were already damaged. The brush seals seem to be able to cope with rough edges and uneven surfaces far better and are not so easily damaged.
However what ever type of seal is used the door and frame must be installed correctly with even gaps that are small enough for the seals to be effective, all to often in new builds it would appear that who ever installs the door sets has not the first idea of what the seal is for. Many seem to think it is a draft strip at best. I undertook a risk assessment on a brand new block of flats where the occupants had not moved in yet and as luck would have it the housing officers had keys to the flats. We were all interested in the layout and finish of the flats which included a FD30s entrance door. However when the 1st entrance door was viewed from the inside the gaps were larger than specified and the brush seal ineffective. A number of other doors were sampled and the standard varied, the problems were highlighted in the finished FRA. The builders answer was building settlement and as their approved inspector had made no comment they would not rectify saying it was now a problem for the housing association.
Yes smoke seals can be effective but those that install or inspect must know what they are doing and be prepared to put things right.
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By comparing intumescent strips and neoprene seals (brushes) surely one is comparing apples with fish. They happen to be located in roughly the same place on a FD but they do very different jobs. The low temperature smoke seals protect from the passage of the products of fire in the incipient and growth stage (especially so if there is a smouldering fire). The intumescent strip will slow the spread of hot smoky gases once the fire is fully developed.
???
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Intumescent strips only really do their job when the door is hit by a fully developed fire. In a lot of situations, when we specify a fire door we really only need something solid in the hole. However there are times when the door needs to deliver and the strips can help both in terms of sealing the operating gap and (perhaps more importantly) help stop the door falling to bits.
The flexible seals can be very effective at reducing the amount of smoke that gets past the door (it's more than you might expect) but they can wear out. The best ones are those that are mounted on the door stop rather than on the edge of the door. These ones compress when the door is closed so they dont wear out as quickly.
I think Auntie lynne produce a guide whic showed the different types.
Are they necessary upgrades - its up to your risk assessment to decide.................
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I must agree that the brush type smoke seals seem to withstand everyday usage far more than the thin strips, which are often damaged or pulled off entirely.
I often require door upgrading from 25mm stops primarily to increase smoke control via brushes/strips, it's just coincidental that that means they get an intumescent upgrade as well due to most smoke seals being incorporated into a strip.
That isn't to say the intumescent isn't important, it can be of use to life safety where you aren't evacuating as quickly as normal, such as a building with refuges or phased evac or healthcare.
As usual enforcement isn't consistent I've seen plenty of premise with notices on them for various things but totally overlooking the fire doors of the rebate only type (they were in good condition)