FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: SuzannaC on January 06, 2011, 03:17:29 PM
-
Dear All,
It has been discussed previously here but not in lenght. I though maybe it would be good to have a fresh discussion and supporting evidence if available which ever side you are taking in this matter.
Is it ok to keep mobility scooters/batteries charged in common areas of flats/ sheltered accomodation?
-
I fear for my head as it pokes above the parapet...
We do in certain 'if' / 'but'/ 'when' criteria are met. This is supported by our County fire service too.
-
If but and when works for me too with a pinch of why and WTF.
The issues are ignition sources, combustible materials and obstruction of an escape route. And pinching the landlords electricity.
If you google search there are a few news stories of these things catching fire, not many but it shows potential.
Those I have seen tend to be charged on extension leads passed through doors and under carpets, increasing the potential.
Few buildings have wide enough corridors or alcoves to store them without obstructing the corridor. My gut feeling is that there is less potential of a fire occurring if they are not charged in the common areas but there is little evidence available to prove that one way or the other.
Apply the principles of prevention. Avoid all hazards that can be avoided, and if it cant be avoided take steps to minimise the potential or as a last resort mitigate the effects.
-
Agree with all the above
Would just add that scooters should not be permitted on corridors / escape routes from which there is only single direction of escape.
So if you have bedrooms beyond where the scooter is being charged and residents would have to evacuate past the scooter, if it were to catch fire, then obviously that wouldn't be acceptable.
-
Would just add that scooters be permitted on corridors / escape routes from which there is only single direction of escape.
Is there "should not" missing from this sentence somewhere?
-
Whoops quite right Phoenix phew dont think anyone saw :-[
-
I am of a same opinion of course. I have the media after me that the tennant is not allow to keep his scooter there even that he has a" safe gel battery" battery in the scooter. One of my co-workers brought this to my attention:
Thermal Runaway
The operating temperature which is reached in a battery is the result of the ambient temperature augmented by the heat generated by the battery. If a battery is subject to excessive currents the possibility of thermal runaway arises resulting in catastrophic destruction of the battery. This occurs when the rate of heat generation within the battery exceeds its heat dissipation capacity. There are several conditions which can bring this about:
Initially the thermal I2R losses of the charging current flowing through the cell heat up the electrolyte, but the resistance of the electrolyte decreases with temperature, so this will in turn result in a higher current driving the temperature still higher, reinforcing the reaction till a runaway condition is reached.
During charging the charging current induces an exothermic chemical reaction of the chemicals in the cell which reinforces the heat generated by the charging current.
Or during discharging the heat produced by the exothermic chemical action generating the current reinforces the resistive heating due to the current flow within the cell.
The ambient temperature is excessive.
Inadequate cooling
Unless some protective measures are in place the consequences of the thermal runaway could be meltdown of the cell or a build up of pressure resulting an explosion or fire depending on the cell chemistry and construction. See more details in the section on Lithium Battery Failures.
The thermal management system must keep all of these factors under control.
Note
Thermal runaway can occur during the charging of valve regulated lead acid batteries where gassing is inhibited and the recombination adds to the temperature rise. This does not apply to flooded lead acid batteries because the electrolyte boils off.
-
There is also the issue of arson. A few years ago a serial arsonist was at work in the area where I was based and he/she used to target motor cycles and prams left in the stairways of blocks of flats and used other materials to get them properly alight so you will need to factor this aspect into your risk assessment. In my opinion its down to judgement based on the individual circumstances - sorry for stating the bleeding obvious but some people really don't get it!!
-
It's a no from me!
While it's an emotive and sometimes contraversial matter, scooters can be the cause of fire and compromise/obstruct escape routes.
Advice I gave was to have a dedicated area for charging/parking, preferably externally or use a room in the premises with limited access and appropriate fire precations in place.
Oh, and always subject to the fire risk assessment.
-
This may be of interest:
21 December 2010 Sheffield Star
TWO firefighters were treated after breathing in smoke when they entered a block of flats to rescue residents trapped in their homes by fire.
Six fire engines and an aerial ladder platform were deployed to the Parkside Block on Deer Park Road, Stannington, in the early hours of yesterday after flats began filling with smoke.
Crews discovered an electric mobility scooter burning outside
an eighth floor flat - trapping occupants in two flats. They extinguished the flames and led three people to safety. Other residents whose flats were unaffected were advised to stay inside. An electrical fault was to blame
-
Quick Google search...
http://www.banburyguardian.co.uk/news/local/mobility_scooter_caused_fatal_fire_1_1621502
...single family residence, not covered under the RR(FS)O but illustrates that they are a real risk.
The batteries in these scooters can be capable or generating substantial power & charging typically uses kit capable of producing high currents; this = the potential for producing a lot of heat if you get a fault, either in the charger or the battery itself. It's also unlikely that the kit will be regularly tested/maintained. As an aside Lead-acid battery charging also produces hydrogen gas, though getting to the LEL for Hydrogen is going to be hard in a typically draughty stairwell!
Whilst impossible to generalise, these do represent a foreseeable increase in fire risk and if one is being kept in what the relevant 'good practice' indicates should be a sterile area then I'd be looking seriously at whether I'd recommend that it be relocated.
-
Playing devils advocate here
Ground floor flats, all with an alternative. Now Mr Fire Officer why can`t I have my scooter in the corridor. Or we have a stay put policy here. What difference does it make if the fire is in the corridor or a flat? I don’t leave anyway.
Discuss
-
Playing devils advocate here
Ground floor flats, all with an alternative. Now Mr Fire Officer why can`t I have my scooter in the corridor. Or we have a stay put policy here. What difference does it make if the fire is in the corridor or a flat? I don’t leave anyway.
Discuss
I think the theory is that due to compartmentation any fire would be contained to the flat of origin with the escape route unaffected, in theory for 1/2 hr anyway.
Escape route still maintained theoretically free from effects of fire in flat unless fan starts to clog up, theoretically speaking.
-
Playing devils advocate here
Ground floor flats, all with an alternative. Now Mr Fire Officer why can`t I have my scooter in the corridor. Or we have a stay put policy here. What difference does it make if the fire is in the corridor or a flat? I don’t leave anyway.
Discuss
Two different arguments there Dave. Ground floor premises with alternatives I would probably go along with parking and charging in the corridor all other things being equal.
But the relevance of a stay put strategy is another matter altogether. Why do we install the level of compartmentation that we do and control the design of flats? To enable us to keep the fire in the flat of origin without unduly affecting the means of escape, hopefully the fuel will be burned out or the fire brigade in attendance long before the fire breaks out of the flat. For high rise blocks we relax the fire fighting lobbies due to the degree of compartmentation. We ventilate corridors/ staircases to allow safe access for firefighters to conduct fire fighting and to guide other occupiers to safety should this prove necessary if the fire develops.
So if someone plonks a load of ignition sources and combustibles in these critical areas it undermines the whole idea.
From the landlords point of view there is also the aspect of control. Common areas belong to the landlord and the landlord is liable for what goes on there. Tenants are always trying to overflow their flats and store things in common areas. Found a motorcyle in the ground floor of a single storey block last week. Zero tolerance is the only manageable way. One persons doormat becomes another persons car battery, sofa and TV set, tin of petrol. And so it goes on.
-
The reason why we have allowed this is to reach a compromise between independent living and fire safety.
Unfortunately there is not always scope to store these vehicles elsewhere. Flats aren't able to accommodat them and landlords can't just stump up money for purpose built storage facilities externally. Also, a lot of people have such mobility issues that they rely on these vehicles to get to and from their flat and with shopping etc.
Like others have said, we apply a certain criteria and not storing them in these areas where there is one means of escape is one of these.
The discussion regarding charging is still ongoing. Some would like this providing charging times are not exceeded, however my opinion is that this could be very difficult to monitor and maybe even unrealistic to monitor.
-
Thats right JWatts and thats why we too say "If, but, when, why and sometimes WTF."
I appreciate your concern to promote independent living but sometimes when working at the fringes this does create additional problems. People with particular special needs being honed into property and housing schemes that by their very nature cannot meet those needs effectively or without putting others at risk.
True example- I remember one forthright discussion with a social worker supporting a gentleman who needed a lot of support, he was a chain smoker and they put him in a ground floor flat in a single staircase 3 storey building. He was very fearful of being closed in so his front door and all doors in his flat were wedged open. The social worker insisted that to close the doors breached his human rights and put notices on the doors warning people not to close them. The wrong type of accommodation and the wrong type of support which placed everyone else at intolerable risk and having to endure his secondhand smoke.
-
We do a lot of FRAs for a large housing association and they have a zero tolerance policy to scooters or anything for that matter in common, landlord controlled areas of flats, sheltered accommodation etc.
-
The reason why we have allowed this is to reach a compromise between independent living and fire safety
We are the same as JWatts, applying a number of control measures yet allowing a degree of independance.
We also have staff on site 24hrs which helps.
-
Under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 mobility scooters
are not recognised for the provision of housing adaptations as they are
considered to be an outdoor vehicle.