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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: seth119 on February 28, 2011, 02:02:30 PM
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Charges over Warwickshire firefighters' deathsThree Warwickshire fire service managers are to face charges of manslaughter by gross negligence over the deaths of four firefighters.
Paul Simmons, Adrian Ashley and Timothy Woodward were incident commanders at the time of the warehouse blaze in Atherstone-on-Stour in November 2007, the Crown Prosecution Service said.
Ian Reid, John Averis, Ashley Stephens and Darren Yates-Badley all died.
The defendants are due to appear before magistrates on 1 April.
Warwickshire County Council also faces a charge of failing to ensure safety at work.
'Public interest'
The charge against the council was brought under section 2 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974.
The bodies of Mr Stephens, 20, Mr Averis, 27, and Mr Yates-Badley, 24, were found in the charred remains of the warehouse. Mr Reid, 44, died later in hospital.
Michael Gregory, reviewing lawyer in the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) special crime division, said: "Following a thorough investigation by Warwickshire Police and the Health and Safety Executive, I have reviewed the evidence in this case very carefully.
"I have decided that there is sufficient evidence, and it is in the public interest, to charge Paul Simmons, Adrian Ashley and Timothy Woodward with gross negligence manslaughter.
"Mr Simmons and Mr Ashley were watch managers and Mr Woodward was a station manager at the time of the fire, but they all acted as incident commanders before, during and after their colleagues were sent into the burning building.
"In that role they were responsible for making the operational decisions while their colleagues tried to put out the fire."
'Sincere condolences'
He added he had also decided there was sufficient evidence for a realistic prospect of conviction against Warwickshire County Council for failing to protect the health and safety of its employees.
He said it was in the "public interest" to prosecute.
"I send my sincere condolences to the families of these four men who died in such terrible circumstances," he said.
Nine other individuals, who were investigated by Warwickshire Police, have been told that there is insufficient evidence to take any action against them.
Warwickshire Police welcomed the announcement by the CPS.
A spokesman said: "This has been a long and complex investigation and the CPS has reviewed it with due diligence before making its decision.
"The judicial process has now begun and we must await the outcome.
What A sad day my hart goes out to those lads.
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I agree its a sad day for all concerned. The only glimmer of hope is that the bereaved families will have opportunity for questions to be answered and perhaps for some closure on this tragic event. I also feel for the accused , it could so easily have happened to any of us. I must say I was a little surprised to note that all the accused are lower or middle management.
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Halfway through the incident with only Watch and Station Managers in charge, I don't think so. Easy targets though. As said before, there but for the grace of god or whomever, it could have been any one of us. I feel sorry for all involved no one goes to work thinking they will lose their life and no one goes to work thinking a colleague will and then to end up where all these people are is very sad.
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I wholeheartedly agree with all of the above. A tragic incident that took the lives of four F/F colleagues, that wrecked the lives of so many families in Warwickshire is now going to ruin the lives of more. We all know that the training we have received as officers cannot cover every incident we attend and that operational decisions are only as good as the information we receive about the risks in the building and the resources we have at our disposal to carry out the task in hand.
Kurnal I am also surprised that the charges only relate to the lower/middle managers involved. I wonder where the British fire services will end up following the case, will crews not be able to enter a building until a senior manager attends - will the senior managers take a long route to the incident to ensure they don't have to make such decisions in the early stages of a fire?
My thoughts go out to all of the families; those who lost loved ones and those who are now at the mercy of the courts.
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I am still shell shocked and angry inside that these W/M S/O have been charged as the previous post above suggest it could have been any one of us, In the UK fire service we are taught about dynamic risk assessment I certainly will think twice before committing any BA teams. What is interesting is that not once is the Regulatory Reform Order mentioned surely the building owners have failed in there duty of care and should be prosecuted.
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I share the views of most of you. It seems very unfair that the W/Cdrs and S/Cdrs have been brought to book. How often do we hear about "corporate manslaughter" cases where organisations are fined when an employee is killed, yet individual directors or managers are seldom sent to prison.
A dangerous precident may well be set here, and this intended prosecution contradicts the recent "Striking the balance" document issued by the HSE.
Then again, what if complete negligence did play its part, and those firefighters were needlessly sent to their death by their superiors? There are always two sides to every story, it is very easy to criticise or hypothosise I may ormay not have happened.
We don't kow what happened that night, or indeed about the information given to Incident Commanders which led to the actions they took.
I personally am worried that the Incident Commanders have been made scape goats, and I cannot be sure that this case is in the public interest. What is certain is that the consequences for those incident commanders could be grave, and the wider consequences for the UK Fire Service catastrophic.
I sincereley hope common sense prevails.
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I guess it may be wise to point out that what we see may be the tip of the iceberg and that other legal action may be in progress.
What we see so far may not be the complete picture.
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Theis quote from the info4fire article is interesting:
"The CPS added that the decision about whether any prosecutions should be brought under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 is one for the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). For its part, the HSE told Info4fire that no formal decision has yet been made on whether such prosecutions will be brought and that it could not comment at this stage."
With regard to the prosecutions I am also amazed that it is only the lower ranks who are being prosecuted when so much of their actions are determined by the actions (or in actions) of the upper levels within the brigade.
I think that the outcome of this trial is going to be pivitol in the manner in which the Fire Service operates in the future.
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I've just listened to the full BBC interview with Brian Sweeney with his perspective on the current legislation and its application plus his fears for the future. Well worth a listen and a talking point for this debate (- admin if you consider this is the wrong board please let me know and I'll move or delete it).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12615615 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-12615615)
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I once read a booklet regarding negligence and afterwards I decided the only safe route was to the leave the crew on the appliance and do the job myself. :)
What will be the aftermath if this case goes against the defendants, its going to be a brave and confident Oic who will commit his troops unless s/he is two hundred percent certain that it is safe to do so and can you be that certain.
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You may be certain at the time, sadly though you are the only one who has to decide instantly and without the benefit of hindsight. Everyboy else who later hangs you out to dry has all the time in the world to consider what would have been a better course of action for you to have taken.
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Please do not misunderstand what I am about to say….
But can I point out that we are not in possession of the full facts and if we have any faith in British justice ( and I for one have, or I would not be doing the job I am and nor would many of you) then perhaps the procedure should run its course?
The problem may well be an endemic one with ICS, or it may be lack of training, or time for training, or it may be freelancing, or just bad command or communication. We just don’t know.
You are all jumping to the conclusion that the accused are all completely innocent and that they will all be found to be completely guilty. As Kurnal said there may well be more to come.
One thing is certain; this, and the subsequent fall-out will radically change the British fire service whatever the outcome.
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Sam, I don't think anyone has pre-judged the case or is jumping to any conclusions - maybe apart from yourself? If you read the above posts most are simply commenting on the circumstances of the charge. Nobody has claimed the innocence of any individual - personally I am sad firstly that this situation has arisen and secondly that the only ones charged are junior and middle managers who have difficult and time critical decisions to make (OK - I'm assuming this and don't know the full facts) and are being held to account with the benefit of hindsight.
The issues you mention of training, poor communication and freelancing happen at almost every large fire to some degree and sometimes cannot be fully controlled by the IC particularly at a large fire where messages have to be passed by others and spans of management control can be large and difficult to micro-manage - as some people believe should happen. Of course there is a long way to go in this case but I don't think it will stop the issues being discussed around the mess table, in training centres and at management meetings - it certainly won't stop me giving my own opinions as right or wrong as they may eventually turn out to be!
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Sam,
I wish I had your faith in British justice, which consists of two very clever people trying to beat each other in a debating contest in a court room. If you believe all the facts are going to come out in court you are sadly mistaken, just look at some of the miscarrages of justice ther have been.
The real problem, and where I have great sympathy for the people going to court, is that the people in charge of the initial attendance have to make major decisions rapidly based, on very little information of totally unknown veracity. They normally have to make instant decisions on what they can see and what they have been told. These decisions are then pulled to pieces by people who have spent months examining the scene and carrying out long interviews with witnesses.
It comes down to the difference between a hero and a *******g idiot, which is the hero got away with it!
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Hummmm. Well; actually; I do have faith in British justice, and if I read your posts well, I believe many of the other contributors to this forum are involved in the administration of justice and or legislation as well. I find it difficult to believe you are all willing to abandon your faith in one of the best judicial systems in the world, with all its faults , based on blind loyalty to a profession that will not improve without being challenged. :'(
Mike your strapline is interesting The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it
do you actually believe it?
Because if this Court case exposes failings in the British Fire Service that will save lives in the future; surely the truth should be sought, however painful it may be ?
Oh and in case anyone should wonder on my qualifications/experience to discuss this.......... I have done it .......for 33 years WT with many years as a SubO / WM and StnO-ADO / SM
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With no particular reference to this case (of which I know absolutely nothing) I am sad to have to say that I agree with Mike.
My opinion is that the justice system in this country stinks of unfairness and corruption. On every ocassion I have had to deal with it, I have been left amazed at it's ineffectiveness and how it is strangled by the lawyers for their greatest profit.
Now, I'm not saying that it is the worst legal system in the World, because I have no experience of other systems, but it is a long long way from being anywhere near good enough.
If I was in the position of being prosecuted for anything, I would have no real faith that proper justice would prevail. History is riddled with examples of how our supposedly great justice system, obviously isn't.
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Sam,
Yes I do believe my strapline, If you are looking for the truth then you are open to other ideas, views and arguements. If you believe you have found it then you cannot admit you are wrong. (end of philosophical discourse)
With regard to the courts, yes the British justice system is one of the better ones but it is by no means perfect. (if it was why do we have a Court of Appeal?)
Whether or not the case will expose the failings of the British Fire Service is highly questionable, as it is the men who are on trial, not the Fire Service. I am not blindly loyal to the Fire Service and if the case does result in improvements then I will welcome them.
Yes the truth should be sought but I do not believe in this case that taking people to court is a good way of acheiving this. It strikes me that there are too many political agendas to do this.
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Mike
If you are looking for the truth then you are open to other ideas, views and arguements. If you believe you have found it then you cannot admit you are wrong. (end of philosophical discourse)
.... agreed, .........debate, critique and peer review are the best ways to seek the truth.
With regard to the courts, yes the British justice system is one of the better ones but it is by no means perfect. (if it was why do we have a Court of Appeal?)
.... agreed
Yes the truth should be sought but I do not believe in this case that taking people to court is a good way of acheiving this. It strikes me that there are too many political agendas to do this.
....disagree. This is the way that H&S legislation works. (and also the (RRO) FSO which is based on it.)
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Faith in British justice-best laugh i've had in ages-sorry i shouldn't be so cynical
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Several years ago a Sub Officer was tragically killed in a water incident trying to save a member of the public. As a result improvement notices were served on the Brigade as they were will ill-equipped to deal with water incidents in terms of training and equipment. Times have now moved on but a point of note is that the ACO Ops was the one in the firing line (who subsequently became CFO when it came to court). I don’t see here how senior management cannot be involved, yes they may not have been there at the time critical decisions were made but the officers that attended were not responsible for writing operational policies and procedures for such incidents.
That said a very sad day as all have mentioned that these young lads were killed doing their jobs, I just hope the issue is resolved sensibly.
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In mho training is the issue and not the actions of the crew.
We train our police officers up to the eyeballs and beyond, they need to be equipped to make decisions, and this is what the HSE document police version is all about.
In regard to operational info, as long as they combine what they are told and act in accordance with that training we stand by them, sometimes also even when they do something stupid like diving into water to effect a rescue we publicly back them, after all its what the public expect.
If there was a deficiency in info or training the higher ups should be looked at, not the poor stiffs on site.
In regard to British Justice, is it British any more?
davo
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Halfway through the incident with only Watch and Station Managers in charge, I don't think so. Easy targets though. As said before, there but for the grace of god or whomever, it could have been any one of us. I feel sorry for all involved no one goes to work thinking they will lose their life and no one goes to work thinking a colleague will and then to end up where all these people are is very sad.
Very true. I know we don't have all the facts but I find it hard to belive that Watch and Station Managers were in any position to cause the deaths.
Time will tell but I'm concerned for the future of our profession.