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FIRE SAFETY => Fire Alarm Systems => Topic started by: Davo on March 09, 2011, 10:47:32 AM
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Premises
3 storey plus basement, oblong with centre stair and internal stair one end external other end.
Two of the floors have one room within the centre staircase enclosure, fully FD30S' d up with corridor FD30S either side.
My question is
Should that room be in the staircase zone or the floor zone ???
Its not mentioned in 5839 and I have no other guidance from the great man, or inded other great men, to assist ;D
cheers
davo.
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DC
Yes, directly onto the stairs
davo
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Hi Davo
Is it a conventional or an addressable system?
Presumably we are talking about a system that incorporates automatic detectors.
I guess it's much less important with an addressable system but we should remember why stairwells are usually treated as a separate zone in their own right. If there is a fire on the ground floor and smoke enters the staircase it will rise up and as there are likely to be detectors on each landing level each will operate in sequence as the smoke rises.
If the detectors in the staircase were linked to the zone covering that particular floor you would very quickly be given the impression that all floors were involved in fire. That would be very confusing. So to avoid this the staircase is treated as a zone in its own right.
But as David says one fundamental reason for creating detection zones is to support the quick and easy investigation of alarms. And provided you meet this requirement I don't think it really matters which way you configure it. And it's less important still if it's an addressable system.
My gut feeling is that the room leading off the staircase should be part of the zone covering that particular floor. But as always happy to be corrected if someone knows better.
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Each floor wing is about 25M long, central corridor and rooms off, say 30 per floor in all.
I just thought it might be simpler to stick the room in the stair zone, one of the two doors has GW glass panel so it would be obvious it was the other room. ;D
However as always I will defer to those with better knowledge, especially those who have done the job!
davo
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L1 system Prof, 2005.
Each floor is one zone.
davo
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The idea is to guide the fire brigade to the fire, therefore they will want to be guided to the door of the room where the fire is contained.
Therefore it would seem logical to put the two rooms on the staircase zone rather than the floor zone.
Works for me. :D
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Staircases (and other risers in a building) should have their own zones.
Rooms leading onto that zone can also be part of that zone (unless the total area covered would exceed 2000m2) but they can also be their own zone(s).
However if you are standing in fire zone X, you should never have to travel through another zone to reach a different part of zone x
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Hola Wiz
Just to clarify for my own interest. example
A building has a central stairwell that goes from ground to 1st floor. Both floors have other areas that you have to go through the stairwell to reach on the same floor. So from what you have said-should the other rooms be on individual zones?
and this is an addressable system.
13.2.3 Additional recommendations applicable to detection zones that contain non-addressable automatic fire detectors
c) Automatic fire detectors within any enclosed stairwell, liftwell or other enclosed flue-like structure should be considered as a separate zone.
i have always been uncertain what exactly makes for an enclosed stairwell? 1 door in at each floor? or a stairwell with lots of rooms off it but when doors are shut is enclosed?
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thanks
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By "rooms within the staircase" I'm imagining small rooms off the staircase opening directly onto a landing, in older buildings these might have been WCs or kitchenettes of sorts.
Personally if the system were addressable and the rooms are fitted with detectors as they would have to be for an L3 + system I'd put them on their own zone.
Otherwise I'd include them in the stair case zone simply as the search distance would be much smaller and more direct.
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Hola to you back, Graeme,
I've been on holiday, so only just seen your post. Sorry for the delay in responding.
My understanding is that the use of the word enclosed with the word stairwell is only to differentiate it from those sort of stairs that may be found in otherwise open areas. Say from the ground floor to a balacony in, say, a big library reading room or similar.
The idea of making the detectors at various levels in these enclosed staircase areas part of the same fire zone is surely to avoid the confusion of the smoke from a fire on a lower level reaching a detector on a higher level whilst by-passing one or more detectors on intermediate levels. If all these detectors were actaully on different zones relating to the various floor levels and as part of those zones that were extending beyond a door between the staircase and, for example, a corridor, it could be very confusing working out on which level the seat of the fire existed from viewing the operated zone indicator.
In my opinion if there is no door between the stairwell and the corridor then I believe all the detectors in that corridor should also be on the same zone as the stairwell detectors. This scenario is hardly likely because there is normally always a fire door pretty close to the actual stairwell and which would form the fire zone boundary of the stairwell zone.
The question you raised before was what if there was a room that led straight onto that stairwell at one level. You wondered if that room should be part of the stairwell zone or the floor zone. I think it could be part of the stairwell zone, although it might be less confusing if it had it's own zone entirely (if possible). But this sort of room probably shouldn't be part of the zone that starts the other side of the door to the stairwell at that level, because then you would have to travel through the stairwell zone to reach two separated parts of the same zone when searching for a fire condition and it may confuse people trying to establish where the boundaries of zones are.
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If they directly open onto the stairwell then they are on the stairwell zone (in my opinion),in the same way as if the MCP's are located in the stairwell on each floor they are on the stairwell zone.
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Agreed Buzz, but they could also be on their own zone(s) (space permitting) for even less ambiguity as to the 'seat of the fire'.
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Agreed Buzz, but they could also be on their own zone(s) (space permitting) for even less ambiguity as to the 'seat of the fire'.
Have seen this pushed to an extreme on an old 2 loop (fully loaded) Android addressable panel where each device was on it's own zone (installed by a company that was better known for intruder at the time).
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in the same way as if the MCP's are located in the stairwell on each floor they are on the stairwell zone.
would you not have them programmed on the same zone as the accomodation side?
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in the same way as if the MCP's are located in the stairwell on each floor they are on the stairwell zone.
would you not have them programmed on the same zone as the accomodation side?
Only if they are installed on that side of the door G.
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in the same way as if the MCP's are located in the stairwell on each floor they are on the stairwell zone.
would you not have them programmed on the same zone as the accomodation side?
Only if they are installed on that side of the door G.
I agree with Buzz. If you have to walk from accomodation side, through stairwell (different zone) to reach room on same zone as on accomodation side, this would only lead to confusion of boundaries of zones.
If said room can't be on on its own zone, then on same zone as stairwell is best.
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Wiz
was referring to call points indicating a fire in the stairwell zone not the accomodation zone. I have always known it that mcp's should indicate the accomodation zone not the stairway.
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Wiz
was referring to call points indicating a fire in the stairwell zone not the accomodation zone. I have always known it that mcp's should indicate the accomodation zone not the stairway.
Only if they are installed at the door leading out into the stairwell Graeme,not on the landing of that floor.
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we will have to have a disagreement over this one young man
check Amendment A2 13.2.1 a)
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we will have to have a disagreement over this one young man
check Amendment A2 13.2.1 a)
Having several senior moments this weather - the reason I gave was my arguement that I always had with MCP's being on the floor of origin if out on the staircase (person comes out on 7th floor and thinks to hit MCP on 4th floor etc.),why I then always put them in the corridor and not actual fact.
My bad,will retire to a small dark room and continue rocking back and forward in the corner!! ???
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let you off old pal
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let you off old pal
Much appreciated.
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Buzz, your understanding is widespread and I believe it has been taught as being the correct way on many courses.
It seems that the way you describe is applicable only to multi-storey buildings with phased evacuation (see 20.2.C)
The A2 amendment (2008) of 13.2.1 (does anyone remember what this clause said before the amendment?) states that 'the manual call point on each level (in enclosed stairway), other than final exit level from the stairway, should be incoporated within the zone that serves the adjacent accomodation on that level'
I'm guessing that the importance of being able to operate an easily locatable manual call point is considered more important than being able to establish the probable initiation zone of a fire. Because, as things now stand your scenario of someone escaping a fire on zone 'x' may now easily operate a mcp connected to zone 'y' whilst escaping down a staircase.
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I think you will find the logic is that someone escaping from a floor will enter the stairwell at that floor and actuate the BGCP in the stairwell, being their RPS; causing the floor they escaped from and therefore logically discovered the fire on, to be shown as the place the fire is. Trouble is it don’t always work that way when you add Human Behaviour into the equation.
Just to add the Firefighter/FI perspective to this debate . As I said earlier in this thread, if I was to attend a premises where a room opened directly onto a stairwell, with no other access to a floor, I would expect to see any AFD in that room to be zoned to the stairwell and not the floor. Just my operational and FI perspective. Being practical and not tying up too many angels to dance on pinheads. (semantics). ;)
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There are many recent developments in the Fire Detection and locating. With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business. The fire may damage your property as well as your personal belongings such as files, important documents of an office etc. Thus Fires can quickly burn away everything you have worked to build, whether in a home or a business.
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There are many recent developments in the Fire Detection and locating. With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business. The fire may damage your property as well as your personal belongings such as files, important documents of an office etc. Thus Fires can quickly burn away everything you have worked to build, whether in a home or a business.
Anybody know what this means?
With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business.
-
There are many recent developments in the Fire Detection and locating. With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business. The fire may damage your property as well as your personal belongings such as files, important documents of an office etc. Thus Fires can quickly burn away everything you have worked to build, whether in a home or a business.
Anybody know what this means?
With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business.
I will try to explain NT; Escaping comfortably from any fire is a new requirement of H & S. All systems will now have a zip-line cable out from the control panel allowing a smooth, exciting and comfortable escape from the flames.
-
There are many recent developments in the Fire Detection and locating. With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business. The fire may damage your property as well as your personal belongings such as files, important documents of an office etc. Thus Fires can quickly burn away everything you have worked to build, whether in a home or a business.
Anybody know what this means?
With recent advances, Fire Alarms improved its way of diagnostics with the reliability of the Alarm System. In Conventional Fire Alarm System, the cable line is out of the control panel. These alarms can help people from comfortable escape from a burning building as well as saving your business.
I will try to explain NT; Escaping comfortably from any fire is a new requirement of H & S. All systems will now have a zip-line cable out from the control panel allowing a smooth, exciting and comfortable escape from the flames.
Right :-\
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I suspect English is not the first language and this is a translation problem. ;)
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My thoughts exactly Sam. It's nice to know that Firenet is visited by foreign cousins.