FireNet Community
FIRE SAFETY => Fire Alarm Systems => Topic started by: david911cockburn@btintern on March 09, 2011, 03:20:47 PM
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Hi All,
Let me get this straight:
Because of the amount of vandalism of communal fire alarm systems caused by people driven crazy by frequent false alarms from other residents boiling their milk over, we have now decided that we won't have communal fire alarm systems in blocks of flats, instead we can just pass the liability over to the builders and blame fatalities and smoke inhalation the structure of their building.
When all that is actually needed is to delay the response of the fire alarm panel if a smoke head operates within a flat, in order to give the old lady a chance to clear the smoke out of her kitchen.
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No, we have not 'just decided' - its been guidance for decades, and as mentioned, its becuase of how people react to alarms in that occupancy, not just down to vandalism or milk, toasters, deoderants, showers or spray polish, and as such a general fire strategy was based around how people behave. As mentioned in another thread, most fatalities in flats are within the flat of origin, so there is no reason why this should be altered.
i'm all for spending money on systems if they have a significant contribution to the safety of the building, but common alarms don't (in buildings with an appropriate compartmentation strategy), so a further cost like time delayed smoke alarms are a solution to a problem that does not really exist.
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Oops it seems somebody forgot to lock the lid :-[
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Hi Dave
People don't react because they're sick and tired of hearing fire alarms!
Where’s your empirical evidence for that?
???
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Hi Again,
I have little idea of what empirical means, but what other reason could there be.
Human nature and threat perception mainly - we would like to think that people respond in a timely manner to alarms, but they don't, quite often because there are no cues to say that they are threatened other than a siren going off, but even if there are signs of fire people don't move (photos from Bradford City fire show people stood around watching smoke rise under the stands, and there's the newsagents fire video, where a fire starts in the racks and people remain queuing) if they can't see anyone else moving - look out your door, no ones there, must be nothing, don't want to miss what's on the TV - even if there is no history of false alarms.
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I always wondered how you got to become a 'hero member' on the forum.
In the past few hours I've begun to get an idea how it works!!
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There was no fence at Bradford City.
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Hi Northern,
That doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to do the job right.
Quite agree, but to do that, you have to have an understanding of how people respond before appropriate fire precautions are put inplace - this is why the precautions in a hotel are different to an office. If you know there is liklihood that people will not respond to an alarm/fire in a way you would want to, why pretend that they will? How is that 'doing it right'?
Is the flat strategy that you have a bee in your bonnet about not working? It doesn't appear so, so why spend extra money on anything that has been shown not to work?
Take a look at some the BCFC fire photos from the stands - people stood there and didn't begin to move even though there was signs of a fire -this is where psychology and human behviour comes in - where there is no one in authority, people will tned to do what they see others doing, and if no-one moves, no one wants to be the first - particularly if there's something important on like a football match! Same with flats - people will not respond to alarms if they're in bed, watching TV, in the bath or if its raining outside and they don't want to be the only lemon stood outside getting wet, and that's even before you add in any potential for false alarms - why pretend otherwise? This is why compartmentation is the best strategy for flats.
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I always wondered how you got to become a 'hero member' on the forum.
In the past few hours I've begun to get an idea how it works!!
Unfortunately, it doesn't bestow any super-powers. Which I found to my disappointment.
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Hi dave
Empirical eveidence is based on or characterised by scientific observation and experiment instead of blind theory. As opposed to: Anecdotal which is consisting of or based on second-hand accounts rather than firsthand knowledge or experience or scientific investigation.
I agree that repeated exposure to false alarms may be a contributory factor, but so is the “not me first” human behaviour issue. There is a lot of research into human behaviour in fire. There appears to be a set pattern in the pre-movement stage..... before people take action based on stimuli like alarms. Engineers and Risk Assessors need to take note.
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People did not evacuate the Bradford City stadium because they couldn't get out, twenty foot barbed wire fencing made sure of that. I know nothing of the incident at a Newsagent but it sounds like it was first thing in the morning, do newsagents even have alarm systems?
You quite obviously know only a little about the Bradford Fire and I will happily supply you with the Popplewell report so you can see what the problems really were.
In fact the lack of close perimeter fencing saved lives at Bradford and the two main factors were the combustibility of the stand and the inadequate means of escape that were not sufficient in size/number or ease of opening.
The 'Newsagent' is actually a lock up shop unit used by Threshers and is a bit of CCTV footage well used in fire training courses to show Human Behaviour and Fire spread. It was used in a Channel 4 documentary 15 years ago the clip narrated by Dick van Stratten who was one of my instructors at the Fire Service College at the time and showed our group it before it was broadcast (tipping us the wink of the transmission date to ensure we all taped it for training!)
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I always wondered how you got to become a 'hero member' on the forum.
In the past few hours I've begun to get an idea how it works!!
Unfortunately, it doesn't bestow any super-powers. Which I found to my disappointment.
You needs a can of spinach for that :-X
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Ah Dick van stratten- I remember him on tv right enough. I was always envious of him for being able to play alongside mary tyler moore-she had amazing legs in her younger days.
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Hi Again,
I have little idea of what empirical means, but what other reason could there be.
If alarms are being tested every week, add in false alarms and the noise begins to mean nothing at all.
A new electrical system doesn't need testing for 10 years and a fire alarm system should be no less reliable. Panel batteries should last for 4 years, therefore why test a fire alarm system any more frequently than six months or a year? Limit the amount of false alarms by using a time delay mechanism at the panel with regard to smoke-heads in flats and people will become used to silence.
Then when an alarms sounds people will take it seriously.
because in the real world not theory batteries do fail before 4 years. Call points can (in kitchens-become clogged with greasy yuck) =stopping glass dropping and not work. Detectors like any other electrical equipment can stop working. The call points in an L system are vital so how can you justify a yearly test???
I have a combi boiler that is guaranteed for 5 years but im not going to ask my service provider not to come back until 2016 as nothing should go wrong with it..
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???
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I have banned David Cockburn following this last posting which like many of his others is absolutely unacceptable.
We have been too patient and too tolerant for too long
Here we clearly have an individual intent not on furthering fire safety awareness and understanding but on causing nothing but trouble.
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Hooray 8)
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Nice moderating Kurnal…….He was an amusing Troll though….well he made me smile on occasions. :D
The bloggers he insulted may not think so though. :o
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Gone, but never to be forgotten. ;)
New word for the forum?; Cockburned (meaning: annoying pain e.g. when you burn your cock)
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Oh I can come off the tablets then - bet he'd still argue the earth was flat and that the horizoon is the distant edge.
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Oh no!!!!! I missed the offending post. What did it say?????
Anyhow, I want him back. I am immediately starting a free david cockburn campaign, allied to a DAVID COCKBURN IS iNNOCENT AND RETRY THE COCKBURN ONE. If anyone wants to buy a tee shirt please contact me. The record will be released soon , and I fully expect it to reach the charts, though they will ban it on radio one.
Kurnal, expect a mass demonstration in the market square in matlock the next time you and mrs big al are out shopping. Expect Obamas warplanes over derbyshire by the weekend bombing the hell out of your greenhouse.
Remember, as wedgwood ben said, yesterdays nutt case is tomorrows chief officer.
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Prof
Judging by yesterday's postings from him it didn't work.
Perhaps he is an IT expert too ;D ;D ;D
davo
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No Davo its me who is the duffer and I did it wrong first time. Put the tick in the wrong box.
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Ah ticks in the box-thats what fire safety is all about nowadays isnt it.
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Well since you raise it Colin I could suggest that looking at your preferred PAS 79 report format that does indeed seem to be the case.
Thankfully some of us have moved on and are not frightened to use prose. 15- Love.
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Oh goody! front row seats :D
Can CT recover from his double fault?
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Sadly, as PAS 79 states, it is intended to be used by suitably experienced people. Keep practising Big Al and one day this could be you.
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CT
Suitable experienced, that must be the half day course then ???
davo