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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: David Rooney on March 16, 2011, 10:48:01 AM

Title: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: David Rooney on March 16, 2011, 10:48:01 AM

A particular radio fire alarm system admits in the small print that it complies neither with 5839 pt 1 or EN54-25 but openly advertises:

The ----------- wireless system complies with BS5839 Part 6 - GRADE F network of smoke alarms with radio interlinking PLUS central control and monitoring with a mains power supply and battery back up as per GRADE C

The ---------- Wireless Fire Alarm system is ideal for small commercial premises, small Hotels, Bed and Breakfasts, Guest Houses and HMOs (Houses of Multiple Occupation).


Their line is that if your risk assessment concludes that your fire alarm system doesn't need to meet current standards then it is entirely suitable ????! - (Because I've seen that written on lots of assessments.......)

My question really is should they be advertising as suitable for the above mentioned premises when certain installers don't declare the non compliance unless they get cornered and the client basically doesn't know any better??

Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: Tom W on March 16, 2011, 11:25:21 AM
I would contact Trading Standards, its dangerous
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: Midland Retty on March 16, 2011, 12:45:30 PM
David

Yep definately worth passing this on to trading standards... their product description seems very miseleading to put it mildly
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: AnthonyB on March 16, 2011, 02:25:42 PM
A thread on this product is running on firealarmengineers.com

It's cheaper than other wireless systems and is being put into a lot of smaller hotels, boarding houses and resi care homes, originally with some brigades blessings.

However some brigades are now refusing to accept it & require replacement due to it's non compliances which are multiple and thus quite worrying.

Shouldn't be legal, in fact if EN54 is a harmonised norm it might not be!
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: David Rooney on March 16, 2011, 05:54:33 PM
A thread on this product is running on firealarmengineers.com

Yep !!!   ;D

It's cheaper than other wireless systems and is being put into a lot of smaller hotels, boarding houses and resi care homes, originally with some brigades blessings.

Did they know it didn't comply and consequently accept an "agreed variation" is the question....

However some brigades are now refusing to accept it & require replacement due to it's non compliances which are multiple and thus quite worrying.

Shouldn't be legal, in fact if EN54 is a harmonised norm it might not be!

Yes, systems are being sold - undercutting "compliant systems" - by firms who are not fully explaining all the non compliances to the end user in order to make a quick profit and the distributor is aware but "it's not their problem".....
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: nearlythere on March 17, 2011, 10:37:44 AM
Can someone help me here please? "Compliance" with what?
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: Midland Retty on March 17, 2011, 01:08:12 PM
Can someone help me here please? "Compliance" with what?

Nearlythere you naughty boy, you can't go around asking tricky questions like that ( I see what you are doing)

Oh alright I'll try and answer it as best I can, and I'll await the stick.

Enforcing authorities expect the RP to carry out a fire risk assessment - the findings of which decide what fire precautions are required in the property.

The outcomes or findings of the assessment may allow a fire alarm system as described in this thread to be fitted...and hey ho, if you can justify installing a system to that standard, then itis happy days all round.

But I doubt very much the friendly local fire officer would agree.

Those cheeky fire inspector types normally look for benchmark standards to judge things by. So naturally they will always generally looking for a fire alarm system recommended by current guidance. Most guidance out there recommends, for fire alarm systems, that a system to BS 5839 [insert part . category here] would demonstrate compliance with current legislation.

You can of course select something of an equal or higher standard, but you can't go below accepted standards.

So Im going really put my neck on the chopping block here and say unless you have the correct BS5839 fire alarm system fitted, or one that offers an equivalent or higher standard the system won't be deemed to be compliant with current fire safety legislation.
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: colin todd on March 17, 2011, 09:11:58 PM
I think you will find that one FRS actually told all other FRS in the CFOA region that this system was ok and advocated its use. When another FRS queried this they were told that 8 FRS had looked at it and said it was ok so what more verification was needed. Cos being a fireman means you understand all there is to understand about electronic engineering, advanced high energy particle physics  and Einsteins theory of special relativity.
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: nearlythere on March 17, 2011, 09:24:47 PM
Thanks MR. Compliance with which part of 5839?
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: David Rooney on March 17, 2011, 11:57:01 PM
Thanks MR. Compliance with which part of 5839?

....mainly the parts defining what is required for a radio fire detection system to be acceptable and certificated to 5839.... which in turn now also includes EN54-25 the manufacturing standard for radio fire detection systems.
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: CivvyFSO on March 20, 2011, 05:01:14 PM
Cos being a fireman means you understand all there is to understand about electronic engineering

Don't squirt the water at it.

Quote
advanced high energy particle physics

Squirt water at it.
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: David Rooney on March 21, 2011, 03:31:07 PM
Well have spoken to TS and they are looking in to it.....
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: Midland Retty on March 21, 2011, 03:31:30 PM
Now now Civvy come on, you are quoting out dated firefighting practices there. Let me enlighten you.

Fires Involving Electronic Engineering
Old procedure: Squirt water on it (close eyes and hope for the best)
New Procedure: Stand back at safe distance and watch it burn

Fires Involving Advanced High Energy Particulate
Old procedure: Don't squirt Water on it - instead drench everything in foam or just chuck sand on it and hope for the best.
New Procedure: Make pumps 10, call for the nearest New Dimension Appliance (aka the doomsday truck) iniate silver command, watch it burn from a safe distance
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: colin todd on March 22, 2011, 01:31:49 AM
Retty,  You a re out of touch. The F&RS dont go to fires nowadays just in case it is a false alarm.  And if they do go, they will have a pro forma  invoice ready.
Title: Re: Systems that don't comply and advertising...
Post by: Midland Retty on March 22, 2011, 09:39:35 AM
Yes sorry youre right Colin - silly me!