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THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: Tadees on May 23, 2011, 06:08:39 PM
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Two houses, mirror image of one another, converted in to a 16 bed hostel. Conversion believed to have been in 2003 but, from the compartmentation, it doesn't appear to have been in accordance with building regs. Unoccupied basement, with bedrooms spread over ground, first and second floor.
The hostel is managed on a 24 hour basis.
Service users either have mental health issues or are homeless. The management also state there is the potential for drunkenness and drug abuse, although they try to manage it.
Smoking in the hostel is banned but it goes on and had been the cause of false alarms, which has resulted in service users getting used to it and not evacuating.
Care is not provided. The service users have tenancy agreements but rent is paid by the local authority.
Kitchen and bathroom are shared and the bedrooms only have beds and personal belongings.
Personal electrical equipment is prohibited with the exception of TV & radio.
Staff have keys to the rooms.
Fire Alarm is L2 by the looks of things.
Emergency lighting is installed in the common areas.
Travel distance in the bedroom is no more than 5m. Depending on where the room is on the first floor tenants can make their way out to the main entrance in either 20m or 25m
On the second floor they can either go down the main staircase or use the alternative staircase in the other house & so TD is not a problem
Fire doors look old fire doors i.e. they are old doors with perko closers. Doors are 44mm thick and 3 hinges indicating that they are fire doors. Doors have or had smoke seals and strips.
However, there are the following problems with various doors. Some have one or more of the same problems listed below:
1. Cold smoke seals and intumescent strips removed.
2. Doors not closing in to rebates.
3. Perko chains broken
4. Holes in doors where locks were.
The tricky bit is that the member of staff can get in to rooms and they evacuate the service users.
My specific queries are as follows;
1. Do I suggest door upgrade or replacement?
2. Do I go by the guide and say a fire door is the set and therefore should be purchased and installed as a set?
3. Under The RRO the common areas and the ground floor office where the member of staff works falls under The Order? What about the tenant's rooms? If management has keys, does this indicate that rooms are a place of work?
4. Are staff obliged to evacuate tenants under The RRO?
5. Is the member of staff obliged to use an extinguisher in the common area?
6. Is the member of staff obliged to use the extinguisher in the tenant's room?
7. What purpose does non-maintained emergency lighting serve when there is the potential to switch off the normal lights at night in the common areas when they go to sleep at night? Should the lighting not be maintained?
8. House 2 has an independent panel to House 1. The only way a fire can spread is across the 2nd floor as there is a connecting fire door between the 2 premises, which can be used to access the alternative staircase. The nightwatchman, situated on the ground floor, would not here the fire alarm in next door's premises. Should the alarms be interlinked?
9. The tenants do have understanding but they are a bit slow. If staff are not required to evacuate, how can the message be got across to them that they should evacuate immediately when the fire alarm goes off?
10. If someone is in deep sleep due to medication and staff are not required to evacuate, does the RRO allow them to perish?
11. What to do about the false alarms?
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Hi Tadees, you arent asking for much help then ;)
Go back to basics.
What is the use of the building.
What legislation controls this use.
Who enforces the legislation.
Which guidance document is relevant.
It sounds on the face of it a bit of a hotchpotch. Is it a hostel, an HMO or NHS supported living in the community?
If the latter have you taken a look at HTM88?
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It's a hostel and recognised as such by LA.
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Tadees,
with the greatest of respect, and considering the fact it is a high risk premises with vulnerable persons. if you need to ask this many questions i would recommend you seek help from a competent person.
Although this forum is a font of good knowledge we can only answer questions you pose and can only answer in a broad sense having not seen the premises. this runs the risk of missing serious risks should you not ask the right questions.
however, answers to you questions.
1. Do I suggest door upgrade or replacement?
YES
2. Do I go by the guide and say a fire door is the set and therefore should be purchased and installed as a set?
IF ITS RISK CRITICAL. YES
3. Under The RRO the common areas and the ground floor office where the member of staff works falls under The Order? What about the tenant's rooms? If management has keys, does this indicate that rooms are a place of work?
IN SHELTERED HOUSING EVEN THE ROOMS COME UNDER THE RRO REGARDLESS OF IT BEING A PLACE OF WORK OR NOT. A HMO IS NOT A SINGLE PRIVATE DWELLING
4. Are staff obliged to evacuate tenants under The RRO?
YOUR ARE REQUIRED TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE ARRANGEMENTS INCLUDING PROCEDURES FOR THEIR SAFE EVACUATION.
5. Is the member of staff obliged to use an extinguisher in the common area?
YES AND SHOULD BE TRAINED
6. Is the member of staff obliged to use the extinguisher in the tenant's room?
YES
7. What purpose does non-maintained emergency lighting serve when there is the potential to switch off the normal lights at night in the common areas when they go to sleep at night? Should the lighting not be maintained?
LIGHTING FOR M OF E SHOULD NOT BE SWITCHED OFF
8. House 2 has an independent panel to House 1. The only way a fire can spread is across the 2nd floor as there is a connecting fire door between the 2 premises, which can be used to access the alternative staircase. The nightwatchman, situated on the ground floor, would not here the fire alarm in next door's premises. Should the alarms be interlinked?
YES. IF YOU CAN PASS FROM ONE BUILDING TO ANOTHER ON A DAY TO DAY BASIS THEN IT IS A SINGLE PREMISES AND SHOULD HAVE ONE SYSTEM OR BE LINKED
9. The tenants do have understanding but they are a bit slow. If staff are not required to evacuate, how can the message be got across to them that they should evacuate immediately when the fire alarm goes off?
IF THIS IS SHELTERED HOUSING FOR VULNERABLE PEOPLE THEN YOU SHOULD ASSIST IN EVACUATION (FIRE MARSHALLS) A SWEEP AND BANGING ON DOORS IS THE USUAL. REMEMBER... YOU CAN NOT PHYSICALLY MAKE SOMEONE EVACUATE IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. BUT YOU CAN SANCTION THEM AFTERWARDS
10. If someone is in deep sleep due to medication and staff are not required to evacuate, does the RRO allow them to perish?
NO!!! OF COURSE NOT...IN SHELTERED HOUSING. IF YOU HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE THEN YOU SHOULD MAKE SPECIFIC ARRANGEMENTS FOR THEM I.E. A PERSONAL EMERGENCY EVACUATION PLAN (peep)
11. What to do about the false alarms?
IN THIS KNID OF PREMISES YOU WILL GET THEM MORE OFTEN THAN OTHERS. ENFORCE SANCTIONS FOR DELIBERATE ACTIVATION AND MAYBE ESTABLISH A DAY TIME SEEK AND SEARCH POLICY. CONTACT YOUR LOCAL BRIGADE FOR MORE GUIDANCE.
HOWEVER.... MY COMMENTS ARE GENERAL TO THIS TYPE OF PREMISES. YOU REALLY NEED TO SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM A COMPETENT PERSON.
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Just some further comments from me:
1. Yes. If cost is an issue, prioritise based on risk. What high risk areas/rooms are there? switchroom, kitchens etc. Smoke control (as well as fire) is of vital importance in this type of building imo.
4. This is covered by the RRO under article 15: nominate a sufficient number of competent persons to assist in evacuation of the relevant persons.
5+6 I would class extinguishers as work equipment and as such training is required under PUWER as well.
7. NM is for mains failure.
9. Whats the db lvl at bed head? You can get detectors with built in sounders if difficult to achieve a suitable level.
10. PEEP definitely the way to go, consideration of mobility whilst under the influence and means of assisted evacuation aid ski pad, evac chairs etc. i would also consider having your higher risk residents at a lower level.
11. You need to look at the trends, what have the causes of uwfs been?
Is the alarm system analogue addressable? It would easier to sanction e.g. if detector head taken off so that they can smoke in rooms
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I am intrigued as to what you mean by 'sheltered housing'?
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Geoff - My understanding is that sheltered housing is where there is a degree of care and permanency of residence, whereas a hostel lacks these elements.
To be honest, I don't think anybody really knows. I studied law and the definitional and conceptual imprecision of fire safety would have barristers having a field day.
I worked with FSOs of differing experince and I can tell you that they all have differing understanding of basic concepts (see travel distance thread of mine).
A Divisional Officer, who has worked in fire safety for many years permitted TD to stop in a 35 meter protected corridor in a school, which is obviously incorrect. However, in a HMO, the reality is the bedroom doors are corridor doors and not storey exits, yet you wouldn't find anybody quibbling with that; the reason being it's impractical to have a true storey exit in a HMO. Hence, it's not ok to stop travel distance in a protected corridor where people are awake and potentially supervised, yet it's perfectly legitimate to stop TD outside a bedroom door in a HMO where people sleep.
On to definitional imprecision, what is a protected staircase? If a two rooms open out in to the staircase at the base and they have fire doors, is this a protected staircase? How about, if 10 rooms in a line open out into the staircase and they all have fire doors on. Does this now cease to be a protected staircase and become a corridor approach instead?
Ask Fire Safety Officers where I work and I can guarantee they will all give you different answers. My solution is: as long as I think it's safe based on the risk and what little I have been taught, that's fine by me.
Friday afternoon rant over
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You do sometimes come across things that are seriously scary!
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I am intrigued as to what you mean by 'sheltered housing'?
Geoff, good question.
a quote from the charity SHELTER.
What is sheltered housing?
Sheltered housing gives older people the independence of having their own flat with the security of having an alarm system and a warden. The flats are usually small self-contained units or single rooms in a complex, which often has a communal social area. It is also possible to find sheltered housing to rent or to buy.
This is the original meaning. It has however grown in use and it is used often to refere to;
homeless hostels.
womens refuge hostels
drug alcohol residential hostels
Probation hostels
basically anywere where the premises is staffed to provide care for the residents.
My comments were intended to apply to all of these, however you were right to question it.
I hope i have not confused you.
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Terence, should I offer the services of the 14 competent guys I employ to do the job for him?
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Tadees - if you can get hold of a copy of the original guidance for the Fire Precautions Act (little A5 sized red blue or brown booklets) they were much more helpful than the big thick tomes we have to work with nowadays.
In respect of protected staircases they made a comment to the effect that an absolute minimum of doors to rooms should open onto a protected staircase, apart from wcs. They made the point that if a number of rooms opened directly into the staircase, or if high risk rooms opened into a staircase then you should consider very carefully whether the staircase is a protected route.
Little nuggets of wisdom that so often are lost nowadays. For the same reason I regularly refer to the 1972 and 1976 editions of the Building Regulations for background information- look out for them all on ebay and amazon, well worth the investment.
The old CP3 Ch4 pt 1 that so clearly made the point that there should be a direct access to a final exit from the base of a staircase- a point you will not find so explicitly made in the current ADB. So basic they thought everyone would understand it - but sadly they dont. BB7 compared to BB100 oh dear I could go on all day.
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The old FP Act guides talked rubbish about protected staircases in that respect. I remember talking to one of the HMI responsible for one of the guides and asked him if he really thought that an open plan office opening directly onto a staircase meant that the stairway wasnt a protected stairway. He looked puzzled and asked where on earth you would ever see such an arrangement because surely all offices had corridors leading onto the stairway, with the offices off the corridors.
I never bothered paying heed to any of the guides after that.
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People living in ivory towers rarely see true life, especially when they are wearing new clothes designed for the Emperor, and even more so when the proletariat are so sycophantic they won’t explain the faults of the tailor to the tower dwellers, that is always assuming the tower dwellers are not so beguiled by the designer label they are wearing that they would actually listen to critique.
Equally true in all hierarchies. ::)
Including Blogs. ;D
What is needed is more open discussion and peer review. To obtain the truth and identify the correct actions to take based on the truth
In my humble opinion ;)
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I never bothered paying heed to any of the guides after that.
Why would you Colin I was not aware fire consultants issued fire certificates?
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I remember talking to one of the HMI responsible for one of the guides and asked him if he really thought that an open plan office opening directly onto a staircase meant that the stairway wasnt a protected stairway.
Baron Todd (My bestest friend)
I strongly recommend you report to that big place in Moreton in the Marsh (where they burn fire engines) for immediate re-training!
A protected staircase isn't a protected staircase unless accessed from corridor or lobby approach. A protected staircase must lead to a final exit, or into a protected route which leads to a final exit, that's the law you know. I bet you are one of these rebels whom allow one line of F/R with AFD aren't you ??
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Terence, should I offer the services of the 14 competent guys I employ to do the job for him?
Really Mr Todd... would it take 14 of your 'competent' guys to do his job. Blimey, I think you need to review what you deem to be competent.
But if you want to send 14 guys down to do a one man job then sure, feel free. But only if i can audit the premises afterwards. Or should i be sending 14 inspectors ;D
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Retty that was old fashioned an incorrect training given to fire officers. It has been corrected in the current CLG guides, and was never wrong in AD B becauce the people who write it and apply it know what they are doing. A protected stairway does not need corridor or lobby approach. It is a myth. Get up to date man. I can explain it all to you and re-programme you to the 21st century when I visit retty towers for dinner.
Thomas, I would because contrary to your apparent long held belief, mist fire safety does not arise from the activities of fire officers.
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Terence with a bit of luck and fair wind from the government you soon will not have 14 I/Os.
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Retty that was old fashioned an incorrect training given to fire officers. It has been corrected in the current CLG guides, and was never wrong in AD B becauce the people who write it and apply it know what they are doing. A protected stairway does not need corridor or lobby approach. It is a myth. Get up to date man. I can explain it all to you and re-programme you to the 21st century when I visit retty towers for dinner.
Yes, yes I know Lord Todd, I was only joking, re-programming is not required, what I don't know about fire safety you could write on the back of a cargo ship
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Colin. No fear from the government. Brigades are doing an excellent job on this one on their own.
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Colin in the early days (1971) most fire safety did arise from the activities of fire officers although this has changed over time, until today where the situation has reversed. But that was not the point I was making the guides in question was for the the issuing of fire certificates for existing premises, unless a fire consultant was submitting an appeal on behalf of an occupier or owner. However in my experience I cannot recall any examples.
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On the subject of how many offices you can have opening into the stair on any floor, I would ask the question of how many actual floors you think you can have prior to the requirement of lobbies. Unless you have a single stair you don't need to lobby the stairs until you are over 18m. Is a protected corridor on the ground floor with 6 offices opening up onto it worse or better than 6 floors worth of offices opening onto a vertical stair? I would say it is better.
The old CP3 Ch4 pt 1 that so clearly made the point that there should be a direct access to a final exit from the base of a staircase- a point you will not find so explicitly made in the current ADB.
ADB 2006, Amended 2007:
Para 4.36: Every protected stairway should discharge:
a. directly to a final exit; or
b. by way of a protected exit passageway to a final exit
Exactly HOW explicit do you want it? ;)
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And in the UK sheltered housing would generally be a place that is occupied as a domestic dwelling. It is a wholly self contained unit of accomodation, and (I believe) no judge could argue it is not occupied as a domestic dwelling. The common areas linking such flats up clearly come in to the RRFSO requirements, but the flat part is essentially the private dwelling of the person who lives there just as much as an apartment would be in a block of flats. The building regulations purpose group would usually be indicative of whether it is a residential dwelling, or whether it comes under "residential other", (Along with hotels, hostels, resi-care etc) and the standard of construction is quite different for each group.
The difference with hostels would be that they are usually not self-contained accomodation, the people inside them do not actually live there, the persons living there would not be paying council tax or having mail delivered there, and the fire alarm would usually be of a similar standard to a hotel. i.e. It would not be a stay put policy so there is no need for the sort of construction that is required to support a stay-put policy.
That being said, it is still a grey area, as Uratemp Ventures vs. Collins seemed to state that even a hotel room could be classed as a dwelling if someone was deemed to be living there. The matter that the person didn't cook their meals there was brushed aside, and the person in the room in question was essentially given the same rights as a tenant would have in a normal rental scenario. (This was not case law regarding fire safety, but just aimed at tenants rights)
We should also bear in mind that no matter how sure we are of whether the RRFSO applies or not, and building regulations purpose groups aside, it only takes some half-witted magistrate a mis-informed magistrate to throw a spanner in the works and 'declare' such premises as domestic without considering how the premise was built. (No reference to actual historical decisions by magistrates is intended here) Some times if there is any doubt, the only way forward for an FRS is to try and enforce their 'will', and leave it to the appeals process to decide.
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ADB 2006, Amended 2007:
Para 4.36: Every protected stairway should discharge:
a. directly to a final exit; or
b. by way of a protected exit passageway to a final exit
Exactly HOW explicit do you want it? ;)
Precisely Civvy. I have just been overruled by a local authority building Inspector where I was holding out for my client in respect of a block of flats with a single staircase and a top floor height of 31m in which there is no final exit from the base of the staircase.
The staircase discharges via a fire door only to the ground floor corridor where you then have to walk 14m down a "protected route" passing flat entrance doors and a laundry to reach the final exit. So absolutely blatantly wrong. I was holding out for my client who has bought this almost new building with full completion certificate and was suggesting he makes a claim against the BCO and the developer to correct this shocking error. I pointed out what CP3 used to say to clarify my argument.
The BCO is adamant that the design is compliant with the clause you have quoted from the ADB, he says it is a protected exit passageway.
Now the BCO has discredited me , my client thinks I talk out the back of my head and is not acting on this very significant finding of the risk assessment. I keep rattling the cage but the fire service in this city (Not local to me BTW) aint interested either. Got one chap interested at one stage but then he was transferred to ops.
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You are having a problem I have had on a few occasions. But just when at times I doubt myself, my competence and whether I am being reasonable or not, I think about a courtroom witness box and an arrogant barrister tearing me and my reputation to shreds.
Your reputation is safer by recommending it as it should be according to guidance and let the others fight it out amongst themselves.
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Under definitions (p124) it says Exit passageway should meet the same standard as the staircase it serves. Clause 4.38 (p 52) Use of space within protected stairways, would not allow flat entrance doors and a laundry therefore IMO the BCO is wrong.