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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mar62 on February 10, 2012, 10:08:11 AM
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Views please. A ground and 5 upper storey, single staircase residential property has a ground floor with entrance front and rear. Gr floor is split into 3 parts, front lobby, central and rear lobby. Within the central lobby there is access to lift and the enclosed staircase, off of the front lobby there is access to two flats. They have recently had a brand new L3 system installed and all new E/L. Currently each lobby on the gr floor has AFD. Their request is this - can they remove the front set of doors and pannelling between the front and central lobby (to make it open), upgrade the two doorsets to the flats with FD30s and replace the doorset and pannelling between the central lobby and the rear lobby to 30 minute resistance? My only thought would be to make the doors to the flats FD60s instead. There are a lot of elderly people within the block and so any evacuation may be delayed or slow. Very minimal ignition sources within the communal area. Staircase totally sterile area. Opinions please?
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Views please. A ground and 5 upper storey, single staircase residential property has a ground floor with entrance front and rear. Gr floor is split into 3 parts, front lobby, central and rear lobby. Within the central lobby there is access to lift and the enclosed staircase, off of the front lobby there is access to two flats. They have recently had a brand new L3 system installed and all new E/L. Currently each lobby on the gr floor has AFD. Their request is this - can they remove the front set of doors and pannelling between the front and central lobby (to make it open), upgrade the two doorsets to the flats with FD30s and replace the doorset and pannelling between the central lobby and the rear lobby to 30 minute resistance? My only thought would be to make the doors to the flats FD60s instead. There are a lot of elderly people within the block and so any evacuation may be delayed or slow. Very minimal ignition sources within the communal area. Staircase totally sterile area. Opinions please?
Is the separation between the front and central lobby Fire Resisting including the door? Does the lift and stairway areas on upper floor levels have flats opening directly onto it or is the stairway and lift within a FR enclosure off which are corridors or lobbys to flats?
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Hi NT. Very old doors with gaps between the leafs and pannelling dating back to 1960's.
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On the upper levels, the flats exit directly into a lobby where the lift is accessed and also opposite the lift is where the storey exit to the staircase is. 4 flats per floor. There is no internal lobby within the flats.
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Hi NT. Very old doors with gaps between the leafs and pannelling dating back to 1960's.
Martin
Were, or are, the doors between the front and central lobby fire resisting self closing?
Are you sure the doors to the ground floor flats are not already fire resisting self closing?
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Unfortunately I have not been able to gain access to the flat to look at the doors yet, still trying to pursue that one but looking at them from the outside I would say that they are solid timber doors only without any fire resistance.
Both sets of the ground floor doors date back to the 1960's. Probably were designed to an older standard. Both sets are currently "double swing" but if the replacement doors are fitted they will be one direction only with self closers.
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Unfortunately I have not been able to gain access to the flat to look at the doors yet, still trying to pursue that one but looking at them from the outside I would say that they are solid timber doors only without any fire resistance.
Both sets of the ground floor doors date back to the 1960's. Probably were designed to an older standard. Both sets are currently "double swing" but if the replacement doors are fitted they will be one direction only with self closers.
In older flats it may have been that the protection of the stairway was provided by two fire resisting doors between any flat and a stairway enclosure. It might be that above the ground floor this was provided within each flat by the provision of a FR lobby.
It is possible that on the ground floor the doors separating the front, central and rear lobbys where incorporated in this principle in that when you came down the stairs you could go either out through the front or the rear lobby from the central lobby which contains the stairway. The principle here being that when you are in the central lobby you had two fire doors between it and a flat. If there was only one way out of the stairway enclosure that escape route had to be protected from any flat by two fire doors. With two separate ways out you would use one if the other was unusable because of the weakness in the protection of the escape route.
Are there any plans? You might have to look for old ones which may have been used for the conversion to see what the design was or should have been.
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Thats exactly what I was thinking, (about entering the central lobby and having the choice of two directions). My main objection to them was regarding the loss of compartmentation between the flats entrances and the exit from the staircase. Would not replacing the two flat doors to FD30 or 60 help compensate for the removal of the set of doors as at present the ones in the lobby would do little to prevent any passage of smoke or flame?
I'll have to ask about plans but I very much doubt it. Until now this block has been very poorly looked after.
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Thats exactly what I was thinking, (about entering the central lobby and having the choice of two directions). My main objection to them was regarding the loss of compartmentation between the flats entrances and the exit from the staircase. Would not replacing the two flat doors to FD30 or 60 help compensate for the removal of the set of doors as at present the ones in the lobby would do little to prevent any passage of smoke or flame?
I'll have to ask about plans but I very much doubt it. Until now this block has been very poorly looked after.
Not really. For the purpose of lobby protection the provision of one 60min door does not provide the protection of two 30min types.
You will probably find that in bygone eras, in NI anyway, the passage of smoke was not a big enough issue which could not be theoretically resolved by a good fitting door and fire resistance by upgrading door stops to 25mm glued and screwed to the frame or by adding 12.5 mm on to the existing 12.5mm stop. That's the way it was and I still see the remnants of that approach in places.
As you say it does sound like the building has not been kept up to date with regards to some fire safety issues but we are in the age of FRAs now and reviewing so as to keep them up to date. As you seem to have been asked a specific question I would be inclined to reserve judgment pending a full FRA as by their removal you could be downgrading the protection of the stairway from what was originally intended, whatever that was. You could maybe consider hold open devices if the landlord does not want a review carried out (thats his prerogative and his problem) but you might be best to include some form of comment on the standard of protection of the doors you have been asked to specifically deal with.
It is a little difficult to address this properly without seeing the building or a plan or having some history of what has gone on in the past.
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Ok well thanks very much for your time and for your help NT. Much obliged.
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PS. Yes I have mentioned Hold open devices but their wish is to make it nice and open plan????
Thanks
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PS. Yes I have mentioned Hold open devices but their wish is to make it nice and open plan????
Thanks
"Their" being the occupants or the building owners? Are these are privately owned apartments managed by a committee of owners?
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yes " their" as in the residents committee and yes they own the block. They do employ a management agent who has only just taken over from another company.
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yes " their" as in the residents committee and yes they own the block. They do employ a management agent who has only just taken over from another company.
I would probably suggest that the residents are unaware that the common areas are relevant premises and a FRA is required. Either one has not been done, or it has and they have decided to ignore it. I take it your building is in England or Wales somewhere?
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Central London. And yes they are going to get the FRA done asap. One was done about three years ago before all this was discussed.
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Central London. And yes they are going to get the FRA done asap. One was done about three years ago before all this was discussed.
Do you know if it hightlight any issues then? Have you access to it?
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it made recommendations for fire alarm system and there was no emergency lighting at all (both now all done). There were no inspections on the electrical installation. Recommendations to improve the gaps between the doors in the communal areas or replace them. But now this has been discussed about removing one set of doors. I can get it sometime but not at this moment.
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If these are purpose built the fire alarm may well have been unnecessary if it is a general needs block (or is it sheltered?) - there is no mention of smoke control provision (or lack of) which mustn't be overlooked.
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it made recommendations for fire alarm system and there was no emergency lighting at all (both now all done). There were no inspections on the electrical installation. Recommendations to improve the gaps between the doors in the communal areas or replace them. But now this has been discussed about removing one set of doors. I can get it sometime but not at this moment.
I think in light of a fire alarm being installed there are too many issues here without having more detailed information. What I think you need to determine is what was the benchmark in respect of fire resistance, lobbies and the internal layout of the flats at the time of construction?
How far removed are the current fire resistance levels from that benchmark and have the conditions made it worse and increased the risk i.e. the installation of a common fire alarm indicating full evacuation.
Where the blocks designed to support a stay put policy and is that still achievable?
What is the maximum travel distance from the furthest flat to a protected lobby or the stair? Is this in line with the existing standard or current standards (7.5m) depending on if the stair is ventilated?
It would not be appropriate to try to bring the premises up to current building regs standards but any recommendations should be proportionate to the risks presented.
It is likely that the premises would have been constructed to CP3 chapter IV part 1 and this standard would have advocated a stay put policy. It would also have required flats to have an internal entrance lobby with doors to the lounge, kitchen and bedrooms being fire doors.
Once you have formed an assessment of the above you should be able to determine if the removal of the doors in question is acceptable.
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Thankyou for your replies. Much obliged. Is it still possible to obtain copies of CP3 chapter IV part 1?
Max distance from furthest flat door to entrance to the stairway is approx 3 mts. There is no smoke ventilation within the stairway.
I have not yet been able to gain access to any flat or have any information as to whether there were once entrance lobbies within the flats. the lobbies where the flat entrances are could be ventilated very easily.
It is a purpose built block.
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BC will have plans and you can have access to them under FOI, with your clients written permission. I have spent some time examining a file in a BC office regarding a block of flats. They can't refuse you access to any info they have on it.
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Lovely thanks..
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Thankyou for your replies. Much obliged. Is it still possible to obtain copies of CP3 chapter IV part 1? YES try the BSI but it will cost you a few quid. Although I don't think you need it. The info in the new flats guide will be enough look at Appendix 1.
Max distance from furthest flat door to entrance to the stairway is approx 3 mts. Sounds ok.
There is no smoke ventilation within the stairway. Is there any venting at all in the corridors?
I have not yet been able to gain access to any flat or have any information as to whether there were once entrance lobbies within the flats. the lobbies where the flat entrances are could be ventilated very easily. I think you need to establish this.It is a purpose built block.
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Hi William, thanks for your replies. I'm just going through the guide at moment and reading app 1.
Yes the lobbies can be vented very easily by two small balcony doors either side of the lobby. The balconies do not lead anywhere.
I am going to try first and speak to one of the committee members about the entrance lobbies, who has apparently lived there since they were built. But reading app 1 it does seem to describe the type of layout of the premises very closely.
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All resolved. Thanks to all who commented!