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FIRE SAFETY => Fire Risk Assessments => Topic started by: alfi on September 21, 2012, 08:21:53 AM
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Just ordered my copy of PAS 79:2012– Fire Risk Assessment. Guidance and a recommended methodolog, looks very handy and good for reference on site, anyone had a chance to look over?
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Gees. Not another one.
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yes, indeed, nearly. And a cracking read it is too.
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yes, indeed, nearly. And a cracking read it is too.
:'(
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I am sure PAS 79 will feature in the fire risk assessment template debate at the FRACS day in November. If anyone has opinions on templates and how they contribute to poor fire risk assessments then look out for details of the event which will be out next week. Contribution prior to the event is encouraged and will stimulate the debate on the day.
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I have an opinion. They contribute to good FRAs (if the template is any good) because they drive people to look at the right things and prevent omissions that would otherwise occur. The template in PAS 79 is often described as virtually an industry standard, which is what it has become. PAS 79 is even mentioned as an example of an FRA specification in BAFE SP 205, which is soon to become one of the most important and widely recognized of the BAFE certification schemes, available from mutiple certification bodies. Rock on!
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Well my book arrived very promptly and i've had time to look over, its very good, the templates on the CD are even better as its covers scottish and NI regs too!. I would class myself as an experienced FRA but i'm always open to new ideas and i think this methology is impressive, a good read on the train or when you just need to reference something. I also feel falling into line with this methology will help with the accreditation process once i've decided which route to follow. again this is just my humble opinion but would recoomend it to others :D
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Is this aimed at experienced fire safety types or can anyone become an "expert" once read?
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I tend to agree with Colin, if the template is any good, it does act as a reminder to ensure that you cover everything when on site. There is the obvious drawback that some people will think that if you fill the template in then you automatically get a good FRA, which is the trap when using templates. On the other hand when I was working with a company that didn't use a template there was always that nagging feeling in the back of my mind when I left the building 'have I covered everything?'.
The other problem with a template is, that no matter how good it is, it will not cover every situation and the assessor has to be able to spot the hazards that are not immediately specified in the template and probably use some imagination to include it into the assessment. For example if a set of fire doors are not closing properly is this a problem with compartmentation, means of escape or maintenance. I would say that it is a matter for all three but which one do I address it under?
I would paraphrase the old saying 'templates are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men'
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The issue I have seen with PAS 79 templates is that an idiot could fill one in and an experienced fire risk assessor could complete one. The end result is you have a whole load of ticks made on two very different judgments; it doesn't make assessors demonstrate their methodology or rationale for accepting something. I also don't think it’s healthy to have a one size fits all, I have seen a PAS 79 risk assessment that missed something off due to the template deficiencies not the assessors knowledge. As has been said by others if it’s not prompted it isn't recorded. Some companies who are forced to use PAS 79 by their clients don't like the template and in their opinion their own is better. The debate session is something new which is an attempt to share good practice from a variety of sources to benefit the audience. It will examine examples of where templates can contribute to good assessments.
If anyone does have examples of templates contributing to good or bad assessments please do post them in this thread or let me know through private message. Many thanks in advance.
Colin I think you would be more than welcome at the FRACS event where you could express your views on templates etc In fact there is a speaker slot which if you had an interesting case study to share; you could fill. That would save you the price of a ticket £80 including Vat :)
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The butcher's apprentices and industrial rejects don't even have to attend a course any more. Buy a book, place a cd and bingo - insta expert. I can see the template driving the assessment. If it doesn't mention it it isn't necessasy.
Q - Is the means of giving warning of fire adequate for the risk?
A - In my opinion the means of giving warning is adequate for the risk.
(Your honour, at the time of my survey I saw a some bells and break glass boxes so it must have been ok. And oh yes, it had a lightning conductor so the fire safety was well covered. Spray booth? There was no mention in the template about a spray booth.)
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Yes it could be better if it went down the lines of :
Is the means of giving warning of fire adequate for the risk?
Details of system:
List any recorded variations from BS5839-1:
List any observed variations from BS5839-1:
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Kell, If it is a load of ticks without text, it will not meet PAS 79. You havent read the standard, or perhaps like so many who criticise these things (read all the stuff about BS 7273) you dont even have a copy.
Kurnall, with respect, even you would not be able to identify all possible variations from BS 5839-1, and recording them does not mean anything unless you have the engineering judgement to know whether they are intentional or indeed matter a whit. It would also be out of context, unless you recorded all variations from BS 5266 BS 5308 etc etc.
I will probably pass on speaking at your wee bash, Kell not least because I have no idea when it is, and how can you have a case study on use of a template. We have several thousand FRAs that use the template.
Alfred, I am glad you are finding the new PAS 79 helpful.
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The case study can be on anything of real interest to the audiene with a cutting edge resolution or with a lesson to be learnt. Volunteering will get you the free pass and you can then contribute to the debate when it comes up.
13th November 2012 at Bristol Golf club
Nearly and Kurnal thanks, that's the kind of thing we intend to expand upon during the debate.
Colin ‘without text’ may not meet the requirements of the PAS but believe me they are being issued to clients and submitted as evidence for third party schemes. Companies are being asked to use PAS 79 and they don’t think it’s as good as their own. Therefore it’s beneficial to have a debate amongst professionals about the requirements of good template design. It won’t be a bashing of the PAS but is intended more as a sharing of good practice. I do hope that explains it clearly.
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Are they intending to or have done so already the same debate in other locations? North West would be good.
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Kell , you are right. Use of PAS 79 is bound to be of help to those seeking third party certification as it will ensure that the assessors look at the right things. The thought shoud have occurred to me before. Good marketing point, which I will pass on to BSI! You are so much better than I am at salesmanship -you should come and work for me and give up flogging a certification scheme that, within days, will be overshadowed by an industry concensus scheme.
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Just take a look at the fire pedigree of those CBs that have opted for SP 205 and compare it with those who have left it alone. It will be more popular than other schemes out there just as McDonalds is more popular than Gourmet Burger Kitchen. The reason being obvious to me and at least 3 other CBs. You already know how to make money Colin and what is more concerning is your ability to save money; perhaps your training for a well known CB has saved you money on something you may be gaining shortly from them!
;) Take care Colin; take great care!
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Just take a look at the fire pedigree of those CBs that have opted for SP 205 and compare it with those who have left it alone. It will be more popular than other schemes out there just as McDonalds is more popular than Gourmet Burger Kitchen. The reason being obvious to me and at least 3 other CBs. You already know how to make money Colin and what is more concerning is your ability to save money; perhaps your training for a well known CB has saved you money on something you may be gaining shortly from them!
;) Take care Colin; take great care!
I'm afraid posts like this one are the kind to make me question posting on the forum. :(
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Is Colin exempt from your condemnation William?
I am salesman flogging a dead horse according to him.
I am merely pointing out that he should take care when he goes out of his way to insult people as they may point out things that raise questions.
I am sure the CBs that operate SP 205 will do it very well just as they do electrical installations, surveillance equipment and fire extinguishers.
At the end of the day the forum is for debate and if someone uses it to have a go at others; the gloves come off and it gets messy. Perhaps the Kurnal could dust off his cards and put us both in the sin bin. The reality is that in the absence of any referee I am playing Colin’s game and enjoying it.
I agree William, it doesn’t add to the forum but it is what it is…a game.
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I would simply point out that if anyone wishes to modify their posts at any time there is a facility to do so using the modify tab.
If someone does this and another has quoted the original wording in the posting I would normally then amend the quotation too.
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I agree with William. I stopped posting here for a few months as for one it kept crashing on me but for two Kelsalls constant banging on about warrington was p*ssing me off.
3rd Party accreditation is such a small part of fire safety and something thats not even required by law. How many risk assessors in the UK, and there is about 8 on his scheme, so this constant spam is all about something 8 PEOPLE HAVE DONE. Get a grip. I've never seen anyone get personal or even have a cross word on here til he came along.
Im afraid if it carries on I and I presume other like William will simply stop. It can be his own private forum.
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Sorry you feel that way piglet, your view is a little clouded by your opinion of me I feel. I have made some very useful and positive contributions to the forum and only when my posts have been hijacked as they often are with the addition of irrelevant or derogatory comments have I treated the poster with the respect he deserves (none) and that is more than justified. If a thread gets destroyed I think you will find it is as a direct flow down from a post that is an intentional dig. Unfortunately I can’t promise to stop having a dig back, but I will continue not to be the aggressor.
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I wil not lock this thread as these rumblings and personal disagreements will only resurface elsewhere and spoil another thread.
So now we have all had a go at each other can we please stick to the issues.
This thread is about PAS79. What are the changes, is it a good document or could it be better? Is the template suitable and easy to use?
Personally I hate the template and wont use it. I find it messy, disjointed and the action plan particularly poor. I would rather an action plan set out clearly
1- what is the problem,
2- how serious is it,
3- who is at risk from it,
4- what needs to be done to fix it
5- When should it be done
6- what will be the level of risk when the recommendations have been implemented
and with a space for the RP to say who will fix it and when it is complete.
But I do think the PAS79 methodology is spot on.
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Kurnal, agreed with getting back to the point. The personal stuff while at first is entertaining gets boring after a while and always detracts from the post which as you point out was about PAS 79 and ended up somehow getting around to BAFE SP205, 3rd party accreditation etc.
My personal view on the PAS is it is a good read and essential reading for anyone completing FRAs but it’s not the Holy Grail. If we all followed the 9 step format all FRAs would look the same. Our FRAs are PAS 79 based in terms of the approach and methodology but they don’t follow it to the letter. It’s also worth noting that on several tenders for FRAs that I have seen they actually state that the FRA must “comply” or be “in accordance with” PAS 79, so it does need to be given consideration.
PS I note I have reached the grand mile stone of 250 posts and am now a "Senior Member" is there some sort of prize for this and does it increase when you are a Hero Member??????
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the prize is that you get to buy us all a drink. The prize for 10000 posts is probably a divorce.
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;D
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shut up william, floomin heck! Now you're a senior member all I ever read is your stuff on how good Williams are ;)
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I have seen many templates over the last few years and one thing that stands out is when taken in isolation, they give very little indication of an assessors thought process.
i.e. Are the means of escape suitable …..yes.
What has he or she looked at to make that conclusion, you can bet your last pound that if you put 10 ‘assessors’ through the same building they won’t all look at the same things to make that assessment.
They should all look at the same things, but they will not. Especially if they are for want of a better word ‘amateurs’ Therefore if you get a template that prompts more expansion in the answer, the methodology of assessment is transparent. I realise that good assessors do make good accurate judgements and they don’t want to fill in the extra bits but if they were there the ‘amateur’ would need to provide evidence for the judgement, thus improving the standard of assessment.
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Kel, Well done, you have obviously, at last, bought a copy of PAS 79, which would not permit a simple yes to the adequacy of means of escape. It requires the relevant factors all to be considered. God, I am so proud of you. Sometimes, I think I have taught you all the good stuff you know. By the way, what makes you think it was only one CB we trained??????? I could do you a special discount for training too if you want. Mates rates would apply.
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Thanks Colin, I will be in contact shortly!
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Be pleased to help, Kel. I await your call.
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Please what are Cb's?
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Hi Steven, they are the certification bodies such as these for the BAFE scheme
http://www.bafe.org.uk/uploads/DOC50462A6CD9D4D.pdf
and Warrington (I believe) is the only one for the FRACS scheme.
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Please what are Cb's?
and all this time I thought it stood for Colin's Boys? ;)
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No boys is wrong
Ive nothing against pas79 its a good tool but the inexperience can just use it as a tick box form without padding it out with justifying statements IMHO of course
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I have been a fan of the PAS79 template since the last update (2007), having "upgraded" to the 2012 version I am struggling with the templates in Adobe format great that they are easier to handle/fill but I cant print as standard pdf's or save as standard pdfs due to the restrictions/file/format, any suggestions?
We send all our FRA's out electronically as pdf's so cant do this now? Also sometimes a picture will demonstrate a 1,00 words so again struggling to place these in the document? Any help would be appreciated, spoke with BSI but not getting any joy after several phone calls.
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I have been a fan of the PAS79 template since the last update (2007), having "upgraded" to the 2012 version I am struggling with the templates in Adobe format great that they are easier to handle/fill but I cant print as standard pdf's or save as standard pdfs due to the restrictions/file/format, any suggestions?
We send all our FRA's out electronically as pdf's so cant do this now? Also sometimes a picture will demonstrate a 1,00 words so again struggling to place these in the document? Any help would be appreciated, spoke with BSI but not getting any joy after several phone calls.
Sounds like you shouldn't be a fan of it then Andy. I think writing and recording is a personal thing, a standardised format is a good idea as many people need a starting point but surely you should just use it as a guidance and take the time to write your own one where you can put pictures where you want etc
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after paying a pretty penny to buy PAS 79 are you serious piglet
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I haven't bought the new one, sorry Colin.
Why would you not want to adapt it to make it more bespoke for your needs?
Why put a extension on a house if you've already bought a perfectly good one?
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Thomas, for you a copy is available at authors discount.
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Hi Steven, they are the certification bodies such as these for the BAFE scheme
http://www.bafe.org.uk/uploads/DOC50462A6CD9D4D.pdf
and Warrington (I believe) is the only one for the FRACS scheme.
Thank you Golden & apologies for the long time to respond.
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I have been a fan of the PAS79 template since the last update (2007), having "upgraded" to the 2012 version I am struggling with the templates in Adobe format great that they are easier to handle/fill but I cant print as standard pdf's or save as standard pdfs due to the restrictions/file/format, any suggestions?
We send all our FRA's out electronically as pdf's so cant do this now? Also sometimes a picture will demonstrate a 1,00 words so again struggling to place these in the document? Any help would be appreciated, spoke with BSI but not getting any joy after several phone calls.
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Can't you just use your 2007 Word template and make the necessary ammendents, that way you can use your own fonts, add pictures etc. If you have, like me purchased 2012 then surely that is permissable?