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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on November 19, 2012, 07:49:11 PM
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If you distributed fire blankets to stewards at candlelit carol services at a church, with the intention that they would be available so that stewards could wrap a blanket around someone if they managed to knock over candles and set their clothing on fire. It appears insurers have recommended that fire blankets should be available at candlelit services for this purpose.
However, I've noticed the following warning printed on the packaging of the 1m X 1m fire blankets that I've seen: "WARNING! This fire blanket is not an adequate size for adult clothing fires."
What size I should be used and if fire blankets are used for this purpose, what training must be undertaken to consider the stewards adequately trained.
Any views.
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We've always put in/recommended fire blankets anywhere that naked flames are possible including churches. We don't use anything smaller than 1.2mtr x 1.2mtr (4X4 in old money).
Training starts with getting the blanket wall mounted.....some models are almost impossible to get open unless they are firmly fixed (clam shell type). Pull down on the tabs and let the blanket unfold. Wrap the person and lay them on the floor. Don't roll them.
John
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1.2 X 1.2 is the normal domestic size, in a commercial kitchen I think the larger size is 1.8 x 1.8 not much difference in price but I would have thought any size would be better than nothing.
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Then as soon as the flames are doused remove the blanket and clothing and apply copious volumes of water to cool the burns and maintain the application for at least 20 minutes or until the ambulance arrives.
The trouble with 1.8m sq blankets is that they are fine for clothing on fire but gravity tends to pull them off if used on a small surface such as a cooker or worktop as so much of the blanket overhangs the worktop.
I shall start wearing my fire blanket when I go to Church to keep myself safe. Once again I shall be a trend setter.
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A more appropriate response should be ....stop.... drop and... roll ...then cool the burns for 20 mins. Whilst someone is looking for a fire blanket the person alight is running round burning.
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I agree with Sam. The response to clothing on fire has to be instant. There is no time to go off looking for a fire blanket. I have never liked the depiction of fire blankets being used on clothing fires that can be found on many fire blanket containers. On the other hand, it's ok if everyone carries a fire blanket around with them - or wears it as kurnal has undertaken to do!
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Bah humbug! Just ban the candles! ;) I was once in a church years ago where a candle at the end of a row of seats set fire to a women’s hair. The next year they used artificial ones.
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Steps too far people, steps too far! Next thing is too recommend that people who go to church only wear kevlar suits if there are lit candles.
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Steps too far people, steps too far! Next thing is too recommend that people who go to church only wear kevlar suits if there are lit candles.
Don't be so OTT you. Only those sitting next to candles show wear Kevlar.
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Of course it depends on how much of the person is on fire, in some cases a 1m x 1m may suffice, whereas a clothing fire like the poor chap leaving the stand ablaze at Bradford would need a 1.2m x 1.8m minimum.
A BSEN 1869 fire blanket isn't designed for cooking oil fires beyond 300mm diameter so anything above 1.2m x 1.2m isn't much use.
The only time a bigger blanket for clothing may be of use is it is immediately available in places like labs or welding shops.
In the good old days, a few aerosol BCF's would have done the job for clothing, it's served the police & military well.
As Kurnal points out with clothing the aftercare is as important - whilst the fire is out the clothes and flesh are still hot and damage continues. In lieu of water a WaterJel/Burnshield Fire Blanket deals with both the fire and burns
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Interestingly my own local church, following a major refurbishment in 2010 in which the wood pews were replaced by rather comfortable linked upholstered seats and most of the floor carpeted, decided to abolish hand-held candles for the protection of the said chairs and carpet rather than for personal protection! Instead we use candles in all the window alcoves which were levelled off as part of the refurbishment. Made the revision of our FRA following the refurbishment a bit easier. :)
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Thanks guys for your responses, and assuming artificial candle light is not acceptable think the starting point should be, stop, wrap, drop and roll, then cool the burns for 20 mins.
It appears the insurers have recommended that fire blankets should be available for this purpose but no details provided. Because you cannot predict the extent of the fire the larger the better and 1.8 m X 1.2 m seems to be the best choice.
But as Anthony mention BCF proved useful in the past could there not be an alternative 9l water spray, 6lt dry mist water which would not only extinguisher the fire it would cool as well.
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Id ask the insurers why they feel fire blankets are suitable. I can just about accept theyd be ok if stewards carried them. Careful with water on candles though not always a good mix.
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Jewel Saffire's 1L & 3L water mists would be very suitable, failing that AFFF.
How many candle processions have had people burst into flames in recent years to warrant all this expenditure?
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I think this is a case where administration is getting in the way of safety.
I don't believe you need fire blankets. What you need is a good water supply and a good first aid kit, with trained first aiders, to treat the burns of people; who may on the remote chance their clothing catches fire have to STOP DROP and ROLL.
Its not a dance by the way. ;D
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"good water supply"....."trained first aiders".
Some of the churches we go into don't even have a water supply, we have to take water on board whenever an extinguisher is up for test.
I'm sure even a trained first aider (if there are any close by) would not want to beat out a clothing fire with their bare hands.
Ensure the blanket is wall mounted with the extinguisher(s) in a prominent place....that way it's readily available when hairsprayed-up lady ignites.
John
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They don't have to beat it out with their bare hands. :o
The person on fire is told to STOP DROP and ROLL.. or tripped up and rolled on the floor . That way they will have minimal burns and a few bruised. .........and live.
If people ponce around looking for a fire blanket then the poor person alight will almost certainly die.
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If people ponce around looking for a fire blanket then the poor person alight will almost certainly die.
They don't, there are alternatives, a rug, coat, blanket, jacket or overcoat and in the case I was involved in the Lff used his fire tunic.
The fire blanket in this case was because the insurance required it and if the RP was to ignore there advice, and later need make a claim it could be turned down.
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It sounds like the insurance company don't know what they're talking about. Buzz, Buzz! as Hamlet would say.
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Agreed Stu but would you take the chance of your claim being knocked back. :'(
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They don't, there are alternatives, a rug, coat, blanket, jacket or overcoat and in the case I was involved in the Lff used his fire tunic.
My point entirely....... You don't need a fire blanket. There are easier ways.
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Sod the insurers. anything at hand to smother the flames should be used. cant waste time running off for a fire blanket. the victim wouldnt be very happy at all.
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The person on fire is told to STOP DROP and ROLL.. or tripped up and rolled on the floor .
Sorry Sam I didn't realised you were talking about alternatives I thought you were relying on telling the victim to STOP, DROP and ROLL or trip the victim up. I don't think I would like to try that one.
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It Works. Trust me ;)
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It most certainly does!
Is imperative to take control, get the victim on the ground and smother the flames. Trip them up if you have to because instinctively the victim will try and stay upright. Some victims flail when on fire but others do not and become disorientated (The sad images of the Bradford City Football Disaster springs to mind, and cctv footage of man on fire in petrol station)
Don't beat the flames, smother them, even if its with your own coat. Victim should be encouraged to roll but not flail around else this could fan the flames further.
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Thanks everybody for your submissions.
Check out http://www.safelincs.co.uk/video_player.php?vid=50
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Ah the JS water mist extinguisher. We bought a 6 litre one earlier this year for training purposes. Has anyone actually opened one up to see how they work? That's one cheap-ass extinguisher being sold for a scandalous price.
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Like Amerex's Water Mist that has been around for decades the can & valve are standard manufacture, the same as used for water, foam, wet chemical - the key components that differ from normal are the misting nozzle/lance instead of the spray lance and the distilled water instead of plain.
Not sure how this inflates the cost as much as it does, it's probably the misting nozzle as the machining of a nozzle that produces 25 micron droplets will require a very precise manufacturing process than a bog standard plastic coarse spray nozzle.
Plus a lot of R&D and field testing was put into it as it's new to the market & they need to claw that back - Wet Chemical used to be tremendously expensive at first & whilst it's still at the dearer end of the market is has come down in price.
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There's a bit more to it than that Anthony. There's a tube that runs parallel to the syphon tube and meets at the filter. This tube has a series of holes along its length that allows the gas in the ullage to "aerate" the water. (It should be noted that the cylinder for a 6 litre water mist extinguisher is larger than a standard 6 litre extinguisher to allow for the extra gas that is required.) The trouble with this design is that as the water level drops (when discharging) more holes are uncovered which allows more gas into the water - so what you get is less and less water being discharged and more gas as the extinguisher empties. Bit silly really; all they needed to do was limit the holes to the ones in the ullage space.
The nozzle is very simple in design and would be inexpensive. There's nothing material-wise in this extinguisher that should push the price up to anything like what they're attempting to sell them for.
I spoke to JS sales manager about the requirement for refilling with distilled water and she confirmed (albeit verbally) that in reality, standard water is fine; they just stipulate distilled water because they were concerned that deposits in tap water may, over time build up and block the small holes in the gas intake tube.
The first 6 litre water mist we bought we opened up to see how it worked and noticed the cylinder lining had failed and started to corrode. Also you need to be aware that the tube with the holes is flexible and is only held against the syphon tube with an o-ring. The first one we had, the tube was too long which meant the tube caught on the cylinder neck and bent away which effectively meant that you couldn't remove the valve assembly. Not good. I have pics if anyone is interested.
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That's interesting, I only had the tech spec from Jewel to go off.
Britannia Fire when they redesigned their extinguishers to meet EN3 used the gassing tube normally fitted to powder models in their Triclass AFFF models to produce a similar effect in aerating the foam solution, although they didn't use this feature to get increased ratings. They didn't put holes in it's length, it was just an open ended tube (as it didn't need the rubber boot)
Pictures would be handy as I don't want to buy one just to disassemble.
Lining issues seem to plague most non EU manufactured extinguishers, I hear more reports of failed linings at 5 years or less than I ever did before the big advent of far/middle east models and the switch to EU production by UTC for it's own retailers (Chubb FX) is telling.
The reason that it hasn't been more controversial is most defects will be undiscovered as you don't normally open up a stored pressure wet until the Extended Service and now most service companies (but not all) just replace with new instead.
Admittedly I treat non US/EU manufacture equipment as disposable, it's so cheap it's not worth the time doing an ES with the risk of it failing. For training extinguishers we only have UK made stuff in the inventory for wets (Britannia)
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Note the differing lengths and the tie wraps added to hold the tube in place rather than the crappy o-ring that slides down. Garbage.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x256/garethcollier/IMG_20120404_134406.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x256/garethcollier/IMG_20120404_134303.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x256/garethcollier/IMG_20120402_153113.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x256/garethcollier/IMG_20120402_153046.jpg)
We tried a popular UK manufacturer last year (supporting the British economy and all that) and were none too impressed with their quality; see below. And that was a new extinguisher (cut open obviously). Some of the Chinese stuff is actually very good - I've been round a few factories and they're pretty impressive (granted some of the H&S needs looking). If you know what you're looking at, and choose accordingly the kit is fine.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x256/garethcollier/Liningfailureanddetachedlining.jpg)
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You've got to PM me whose can that was - that's awful! I have a suspicion though. It's a short list of suspects though - only two UK manufacturers remain as the third sold all it's tooling and machinery off last year and now imports.
I agree some of the Chinese stuff can be OK if you choose carefully.
Personally Amerex is the best stuff I've ever dealt with that is still in production, just far too expensive!
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PM sent.
While we're on the subject of these water mist cans. They're advertised as 'dry mist'. Biggest load of pap I've heard - nothing 'dry' about it. Rant over. ;D
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Well if they are dry ........then they will be not suitable for clothing fires....... which was the original point of this thread.
People suffering from clothing fires (whilst they are wearing them) will be suffering various stages of burn. These need to be treated by cooling with water for 20 minutes whilst medial aid is sought.
It not just about putting a fire out.... let's think of the casualty. For once.
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Don't worry, there's nothing dry about them - you'd be pi**ed wet through - although you won't get 20 mins out of one. ;) Maybe a hose reel or an emergency shower? ( I jest) :o
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The build/design also the cost can change in the future but what about the medium/method used to extinguisher the fire what is the opinion on that.
As for getting getting soaked I see that as a bonus (cooling) because in the UK we shouldn't be using it on electric fires.
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Well they've passed fire tests to EN3 (I'll come back to this) but there are drawbacks. Firstly you have a much shorter discharge length. Secondly you would struggle using one outside is there's any amount of wind because the spray would be affected.
On class B fires; water won't provide a film that prevents re-ignition like AFFF will. Equally for class F fires the water will lower the temperature of the oil but in doing so it evaporates - there's nothing to prevent re-ignition should the oil reach its auto-ignition temperature again. Using wet chemical, the oil turns into a non-combustible substance thereby preventing re-ignition.
On the subject of fire tests to EN3. If you actually see a class A test fire, the chap carrying out the test will be wearing full fire fighting gear and they get very close to the fire. I saw one test where the guy's visor was bubbling when he had finished - without the protective gear he wouldn't be able to get anywhere near the fire to put it out with a water mist extinguisher. The image below is of a 55A test fire which is the largest class A test fire. Okay, water extinguishers are not tested on a 55A fire but imagine a fire approx 25% as long and you get the idea. The point I'm trying to make is that discharge length is important and with water mist you're going to be limited to small fires at close range. I know you're only supposed to use extinguishers on small fires but I'd like the option thanks very much.
Water mist is not the Holy Grail. If the price for a water mist was the same as a regular water spray then they may be considered as an alternative in certain circumstances; until then they're a non-starter.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x256/garethcollier/55Afreelyburning.jpg)
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^^^^
What he said! ;D
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None of which detracts from the point that if someone's clothing catches fire the first thing to do is put it out immediately by getting them to STOP DROP and Roll.
Then, the burns need to be treated, by the application of cool water for 20 mins, without hypothermia being allowed to set in.
Faffing around looking for a fire extinguisher and selecting the most appropriate one, will only let the person suffer more burning, leading to horrific injuries, possible disfigurement and even death.
The original point of this thread was regarding clothing on fire, not a debate about the merits and de merits of various extinguishers. This is symptomatic of a loss of viewpoint. Our profession is about public safety. Not a point scoring exercise regarding the best equipment to provide. Or a sales pitch.
End of rant........ sorry, ............I just don't want to see anyone else burnt unnecessarily.
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Quite agree. Seems its often used as an exercise to complicate some very simple issues and make a science out of just about everything that arises
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Apologies if anyone is upset with the path this thread has taken. The original poster seemed happy with the comments and IMO changed the topic to discuss the application of fire extinguishers.
Thanks guys for your responses, and assuming artificial candle light is not acceptable think the starting point should be, stop, wrap, drop and roll, then cool the burns for 20 mins.
It appears the insurers have recommended that fire blankets should be available for this purpose but no details provided. Because you cannot predict the extent of the fire the larger the better and 1.8 m X 1.2 m seems to be the best choice.
But as Anthony mention BCF proved useful in the past could there not be an alternative 9l water spray, 6lt dry mist water which would not only extinguisher the fire it would cool as well.
As the water mist extinguisher is pretty new out and few people had actually had a play with one I thought it appropriate to discuss it.
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Going off subject happens all the time and providing its good information I see no problem. Improving the knowledge pool can only be good and lancs input was worth while.