FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on January 18, 2013, 07:49:38 PM
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Most of the BS 5499 publication have been withdrawn only part 4 and part 10 appear to be current is there revision on the way or what is happening.
http://shop.bsigroup.com/SearchResults/?q=bs%205499
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The titles imply they are likely to have been replaced by the new BS ISO 7010 as the withdrawn ones seem to be about the design of the actual signs, whereas pt 4 & 10 are about their use
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I have done a little research and found,
BS ISO 3864 part 1 2011 has replaced BS 5499 part 1 2002 which has been withdrawn.
BS ISO 3864 part 3 2012 has replaced BS 5499 part 6 2002 which has been withdrawn.
BS ISO 3864 part 4 2011 has replaced BS 5499 part 2 1986 which has been withdrawn.
BS ISO 7010 part 3 2011 has replaced BS 5499 part 5 2002 which has been withdrawn.
BS 5499 part 4 and BS 5499 part 10 is still current which I am afraid makes things somewhat complicated.
There is also BS ISO 16069 2004 for SWGS and most of the signs in the new guidance have minor differences to the previous standard. Supplementary text is required to help the understanding of the graphical sign but it format not specified. Come back Jim Creak all is forgiven.
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Come back Jim Creak all is forgiven.
Not sure i'd go as far as that! ;)
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Dear Tom,
ISO 7010 has now been adopted as a European Norm hence EN ISO 7010 and this month has been published as a British Standard as BS EN ISO 7010 this finishes 25 years of work for global harmonisation
In safety signs. The reason some of the BS 5499 series of Standards have been withdrawn is because the first work items in ISO were for vocabulary, terminology, classification and convention resulting in the publication of ISO 3864 Parts 1-4 Dealing with Principles, Colour, Design, Safety Labels , Legibility, Material Performance and Classification. As these were universal they were adopted as complete replacements for the similar Standards within the BS 5499 Series.
BS 5499 Part 4 and Part 10 are practical application Standards for siting and are still current, however they are in need of periodic revision to ensure absolute harmony with graphic design as required to conform to BS EN ISO 7010 which will be complete by the end of March 2013 and republished.
Unfortunately this will mean that all buildings will need to be reviewed, and risk assessed to ensure conformance. As you are probably aware from other material that I have written that I have deep concerns about playing Pictionary with people’s lives, testing has shown that the so called “Euro Sign†is not intuitively understood for escape, in my opinion this is a significant risk and should be addressed.
Regards
Jim Creak Editor
Means of Escape Publications Ltd
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"Unfortunately this will mean that all buildings will need to be reviewed, and risk assessed to ensure conformance."
Really??
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Don't make me laugh, I've a split lip. comment deleted by Kurnal ::)
Hey guys lets have a debate - no need to slag each other off. Please let the strength of the argument for and against do the talking.
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I'll take my chances thanks. If it was so dangerous to have the old signs they would have been legislated over.
If the signage is genuinely confusing or inadequate I'll ask for changes, but won't help make the signage companies profits by saying everything has to change, it's like the EN3 madness that made a few people a few quid.
New installs should comply though, I've made a point in the spec for a new EL system in an existing building that all the exit boxes are ISO so the installers can't unload old stock on the site (there are none at the moment so there won't be a mix of ISO and EC exit boxes)
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Don't make me laugh, I've a split lip. comment deleted by Kurnal ::)
Hey guys lets have a debate - no need to slag each other off. Please let the strength of the argument for and against do the talking.
Wasn't a dig at Golden Kurnal, just the nonsense spouted in that letter to Tom.
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Yes I realise that Gareth. I also personally disagree with Jim over the level of risk posed by non standard signage and the dreaded euro signs - in most cases I see it as a matter to be addressed on refurbishment. It would be difficult to take legal or civil action over signage in this regard when most courtrooms and government buildings are full of the things.
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I think it gets even more confused when you consider the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals Regulations) 1996 which was introduced as the result of EC Safety Signs Directive 92/58/EEC and is still current legislation. Which uses the euro-sign as the emergency escape sign, which now doesn't conform to the EC current standard, incidentally the other signs do not conform either. So it could be argued the so called euro-sign is legal in the UK and ISO EN BS 7010 signs are not.
I agree with Anthony and Kurnal, and it appears to me the change over has been happening for years with most sign available now are BS 5499 signs with the exception of illuminated boxes which quite often are used in the wrong situation anyway.
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The Guidance on Regulations to the H&S SSR1996 allows in paragraph 8 the use of BS 5499 signs as a replacement for the Euro sign. This has been in place since 1996 so no one ever had to have the Euro sign with its lack of meaning. This is also stated in paragraph 11.
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Thanks jokar, I have received received more info about the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals Regulations) 1996 from Jim which reads "The annex showing the sign illustrations is in the process of being withdrawn and reference to EN ISO 7010 its replacement. There is no requirement to change the legislation as the legislation accommodates this change already. That is why BS 5499 was developed and for those that followed BS 5499 have no change to make." So all my question have been answered thanks to everybody.
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So are all you guys saying....."look Mr Customer/Responsible person/Occupier, we know that your signs don't comply with current European legislation but hey-ho, it's not a problem"?
BS 5306 Part8:2012 states specifically that you should not mix BS and EN extinguishers.....does that get ignored also? We can use a mix of signs but not extinguishers!
Is this another get out clause for the insurance companies? Wrong signs.....sorry, no claims entertained.
What do I do? Tell my customer that his signs don't conform to current standards or say nothing and get accused of not doing my job properly?
As to making profits for the sign companies.....well it happens in all industries.....take air-bag manufacturers, first aid kit suppliers, hard hat and safety shoe manufacturers.....all things designed to make the world a safer place.
John
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Well unless the HSE or Fire Authorities start requiring it it isn't happening on my watch, if the signs became law requiring retrospective replacement then the Government would have published something and there would be a grace period.
Mixing EC & BS symbols has always been frowned upon, so you ideally wouldn't mix ISO & EC signs either.
The BS5499 & ISO symbols are close enough to coexist for me as well.
Unless someone without a vested interest (or someone easily influenced by vested interests like the H&S lot) says the lot must go then phased replacement is the way.
This needs to be run by the HSE Mythbusters Panel!
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1. if the signs became law requiring retrospective replacement then the Government would have published something and there would be a grace period.
2. Mixing EC & BS symbols has always been frowned upon, so you ideally wouldn't mix ISO & EC signs either.
1. They will become law when Appendix A of Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals Regulations) 1996 is revised by EN ISO 7010 as for a grace period there is one in the regs but that was for the previous change over, but there may be a new one, we will have to wait and see.
2. BS EN ISO 7010 is the new standard and is identical to ISO and will be soon ISO BS EN 7010, it is the euro directive that created the so called euro sign which is now history and will be replaced by BS EN 7010 signs in the HS(SSS)R.
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Gentlemen Confusion reigns, You are quoting so many different standards, e.g.. ISO BS En 7010, EN ISO 7010, BS EN 7010. Can you make it quite clear which are the new standards for signs please. I have read the posts above a number of times and it is about as clear as mud, help a poor old fool see the woods.
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Hi Colonel,
I understand your frustration; I think the whole issue of signs lacks clarity although this may help as it does get rid of one of the offenders.
EN ISO 7010 - new standard for graphical signs; i.e. the picture/sign design.
BS 5499 Part 4 is for the design of escape route signing; i.e. where to put directional and final exit signs.
BS 5499 Part 10 for the use of other safety signs including fire safety signs such as extinguisher locations.
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Golden, thanks for the clarification, I feel a little better now.
Made the mistake of visiting the BSI website sales area. It would appear that there are a number of identical publications which use variations on the 7010 prefix letters. I take it the new BS all are talking about is the amendment issued in Jan 2013, only £264.00.
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Yes that's the one .... don't bother buying it there's nothing 'new' in there really it just clarifies what a lot of us have been doing for years anyway. The only worthwhile content is about two pages worth displaying some quite familiar exit signs.
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Being a little pedantic Golden its BS EN ISO 7010:2012 the new standard for safety signs including fire safety and exit signs. All that's is needed now is the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals Regulations) 1996 to be sorted out and schedule 1 to be revised and we can put this saga behind us.
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Whatever ... I think the opening foreword sums it all up beautifully ....
"This British Standard is the UK implementation of EN ISO 7010:2012. It is identical to ISO 7010:2011. It supersedes BS ISO 7010:2011, which is withdrawn."