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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Mar62 on March 04, 2013, 09:45:25 AM
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Wondered if someone is able to confirm whether a part 6 type system grade LD3 is now acceptable within the common areas of a newly built purpose block of flats with ground and 3 upper floors with one staircase? I dont have access to any of my standards or ADB at the moment and am struggling finding anything in writing to say it is or it isnt. I havent been able to gain access to any flats at present either.
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Hi Martin, if they are purpose built and new why would you want a common fire alarm if the construction is suitable for the residents to stay put? Have a look at the link below the guide is a free download.
http://www.local.gov.uk/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=71e152a6-9e0a-4810-aee6-498167664f79&groupId=10171
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My sentiments entirely! I'm not saying I would have recommended it. They have fitted it and am just wondering if its something that planning or BC now allow at design stage?
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Personally I dont see the need.
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unless you can find out why is was installed as a trade off for lack of compartmentation? Or is the AFD there just to open an AOV? As long as there are no sounders in the common area or linked to the flats that would be fine.
Sorry it read like you were thinking of installing a common alarm
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No sorry William, I didnt explain myself properly. Just looking for a reason why they have installed it. it seems strange. There is separate AFD for smoke vents.
Compartmentation all seems good where I have been able to access. All the risers have been fire stopped well. All VP's are Pyrodur glazing. Unfortunately I dont have access to any flats though as they are all occupuied and no one wants to give me access even for a couple of mins. I'm baffled (nearly).
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just expanding on description. They are mains powered interlinked smoke alarms fitted within the staircase enclosure and lobbies.
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Sounds like the builder has just thrown the AFD in for good measure based on more is better principle, I see a lot of these and in some cases very large developments, came across a brand new block in Preston a while ago 150 dwellings over 6 floors with a common alarm at an install cost of £40k. The managing agents were not impressed when we did the FRA and questioned the need for a common alarm system and even argued it made the situation worse as in the event of a fire in any flat it would generate a full evacuation general alarm evacuating all residents. ???
I suppose in your case if the AFD system does not extend into the flats then that is not as bad but its still not right on a new build.
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Same here. This is a very large Housing Assoc with a variety of different types of housing. This one is general needs only. No special requirements to speak of.
I'm going to do the same and question its existenece and purpose.
Thanks William
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I have come across the same and normally make a recommendation if I think they are not required they should be removed. If they are kept then they must be subject to full maintenance and test regime. Trouble is its not so straightforward because in my experience a lot of them are put in as a result of NHBC influence and so are part of the Building Regs fire safety package.
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Thanks for your input Kurnal. Looks like thats the road to head down..............
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I've come accross housing associations that have L1 fire alarms in their contract spec for new builds - I have no idea if its a result of risk assessments in other buildings where there are compartment issues and they've made it a blanket policy, and they go a bit nervy when you suggest they take it out. as with many H&S issues, there is the assumption that the more you put in, the safer it must be and if you put the maximum in then everything is covered so it won't come back on the manager responsible.
I have seen BCO's and Fire Officers collude to try and get full fire alarm systems in new blocks - they try and use the 'we'll get you under the RRO' line to spook people - also had to deal with them trying to get disabled call points and refuges in buildings with no on-site manager (apparently, no staff was a reason why the intercoms should be there. No word on who was supposed to be at the other end)
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This a common scenario. As already pointed out AFD may have been installed to compensate for compartmentation issues or reduction in level of compartmentation at design / construction stage.
Some of the housing associations in my locale seemed perturbed by the Lakanhall incident and began to retro fit alarm systems in many of their low and high rise stock.
Some are generating substantial false alarms much to the annoyance of residents. Very counter productive.
I'm suprised at Northern Uproar's comments about FSIOs and BCOs colluding to have alarms put in as that is not my experience, but nevertheless.
It is important to establish why the alarms were fitted - Installed for compensatory purposes? or was it one of those things on the "nice to have" list?
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A Part 6 system is not fit for purpose even if there was a reason to install.
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I'm suprised at Northern Uproar's comments about FSIOs and BCOs colluding to have alarms put in as that is not my experience, but nevertheless.
It is important to establish why the alarms were fitted - Installed for compensatory purposes? or was it one of those things on the "nice to have" list?
I`m surprised too, I don`t know any FSO who would recommend an alarm system in common areas. they are a continual pain in the butt.
Also, the original post said that the flats were newly built. Therefore, there shouldn`t be any need for any compensatory alarms.
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I was surprised as well - I've found the email I was sent: basically it states that the removal has been justified by us due to the 1hr compartments enclosing the flats, like we made the strategy up, and that there are no flats in the BCOs area without communal detection and he would like to see it. The Fire Officer asked all sorts of questions like the ADB strategy was alien to them.
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Why the system thread installed is very simple and a common issue
Its because designers and architects don't know when it is not needed and wack a full system in to ensure it gets through BC. BC don't care about over provision as long as the minimum it wants is installed.
I have a BC officer who considers an open plan ground floor of a two storey dwelling which has a hall/living/kitchen as an inner room condition and wants the kitchen area enclosed with a wall and access door.
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Thanks for all your comments. I have now thrown it back to the owners and consequently the developers and questioned its installation. I await their response with anticipation......................
I would like to stress that my initial question was not so much "are they ok in common areas" but more like "is there something new in regards to new builds that I wasnt aware of".
Thanks all...............
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from the DCLG planning portal FAQs
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partb/faqs/other
Should a fire alarm be provided throughout a block of flats?
The guidance in B1 Section 1 of the Approved Document (fire alarm and fire detection systems) is not intended to be applied to the common parts of blocks of flats and does not include a provision to interconnect installations in separate flats.
Fire detection devices may need to be provided in some blocks to actuate automatic smoke control systems in the common parts of the building in accordance with paragraph 2.25. Such devices are not expected to be linked to a common alarm system.
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If recommending removal, be careful of the 'Reverse ALARP' pitfall. You're fine if you can reasonably argue that it would be safer (in case of fire) after removal, for whatever reason, but it's difficult to justify removing protection if the sole result is that fire risk is increased (even slightly). The tests you apply when removing fire protection are tougher than those you'd use to consider whether to provide it in the first place.
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Thanks for your comment Fishy.