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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Community Fire Safety => Topic started by: Gel on August 09, 2005, 09:16:31 AM
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I know Brigades like Cheshire have used "No Nails" type adhesive for fixing alarms, for some time.
Have others experience of self adhesive tab fixing too?
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yes, lots! at least one company, dicon, have included it in their application for bsi (i understand, though i may technically be wrong - which wouldnt be a first!)
i think this question is best answered by the ncfsc after all thats what they are there for. try speaking to mike he is normally very helpful (and a decent guy)
dave bev
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Tks Dave; jury's still out I believe as BSI just point you at manufacturers fixing instructions; to my knowledge none mention this method in the alarm manual that comes with product, ie just refer to a good screw as it were!!
I know No Nails sticks like *** to a blanket, so may give problems when alarm needs to be changed at some stage in future.
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No more nails is great depending on what they have stuck it to.
If they have stuck it to a painted ceiling,then it's only as strong as the paint and can be easily pulled off.
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there is also issue of glue products entering the 'workings' - dicon have done extensive testing of a 'full pad sticky' and would no doubt supply you with their findings if you asked. as i suggested i may be wrong sometimes - i meant their own products bs application not bsi! though i could be wrong again
dave bev
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The only time i have i ever have to stick anything to a ceiling was when it was asbestos.
It would be quicker and cheaper for them to use good old fashioned screws.The time they have applied the glue and held in position a while you could have put in two 1/2" scerws easily.The cost of a tube of no nails is about £5,a box of 100 screws is about £2.
edit for dodgy spelling.
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We are supplied with an extendable pole with a plate type thing on the end which you place your smoke alarm into then having applied both sticky pads and No Nails (for instant adhesion I guess where as No nails takes a while) you press it against the celing leave it for ten minutes whilst you stroke the home owners dog and drink tea!!
All this because would you believe it they prefer us not to go up a ladder!!!
Don't go up a ladder we're FF's for goodness sake whatever next?
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do they tell you what distance they need to be from walls etc?
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Better than that they even identify and prioritse the properties most in need of smoke alarms just by driving past in the back of our Landrover!
By the way when I'm not out fitting smoke alarms I work in an Ironmongery shop and £2 for a box of 1/2" screws? they saw you coming I reckon! lol
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Grame confused by "do they tell you what distance they need to be from walls etc?" - who would need to tell this to a Ff, after all it is the other way round, surely? It is our job to know this! Any Ff who doesn't should not be in the job, unless they are still in training of course. It is a requirement of a Competent firefighter to have the knowledge and understanding for the NOS and just take a peek at Unit 1.
Andy - Is it not that it is the preferred method becuase it avoids having to put up a ladder inside someones nice clean hall/landing, rather than not to put up/climb a ladder per se? We have small step boxes for that reason. FRS ladders are not really designed for clean internal work. MAybe specific CS step ladders would be an answer, but seems that your FRS has made a sensible choice.
I reckon they saw you coming on the screws too, after all alarms come with two free!
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Pre No nails and aqua prop thingy we did have a specific step ladder for HFSV, we even painted it red, I really miss it poor ladder is cooped up in a dark cupboard all by itself now and it's done nothing wrong! I might even pop into my station when I go and get the kids from school just to check it's alright!
I think it may be that no nails is the prefered method because of the mess which can be created if you let a FF loose with a drill and rawlplugs!
Graeme tell me you don't buy the batteries aswell! I can get you a good deal on the screws though!lol
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Out of interest we have a drill, but rarely use it as a screwdriver makes a perfectly suitable hole in plasterboard, or simply screww straight into the board missing out the plugs.
Andy could you not take the ladder out occasionally - maybe to the seaside, or park? Seems so crule as it is. The RSPCL will not be pleased.
Graeme we can sell you the plastic plugs too as we generally have loads left.
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The ladder and myself have just been out and done lunch, (I had to leave it in the Cafe though because I had a shout!) you'll be pleased to know I'm sure that he has become quite settled in the cupboard and he and the drill often meet up to go and visit the hoover (another seldom used piece of kit!).
The problem we have round here is that alot of the houses were built in about 2million BC therefore don't have walls made of plasterboard but instead compacted dinosaur poo thus making drilling nesercary,also if we can make a job look a little more dramatic with the use of a drill then why not?
Graeme a tube of no nails is only £1.50 in my shop where did you get £5 from, I'll do a job lot for your FRS at a very reasonable rate (well £4.75 anyway!) let me know if your interested
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easy tiger i was merely curious to know if people sticking them to the ceiling with glue know where to put them.I don't know the in's and out's of FF training.
I have seem them stuck up in some interesting areas.
as for the prices blame B+Q
i would not thank you if you stuck a detector to my ceiling.A bit of a nightmare if it goes faulty and i have to rip the paper off to get it down.
Andy you will only need a drill and rawl plugs if it's a concrete ceiling ;)
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Graeme - at least now you know that Ffs do have some professionalism and don't simply put detectors willy nilly. Rather amazed that you thought we didn't know this - who would you have asked? The dustman?
As to sticking them up and then having difficulty removing them if faulty - a well made point and another reason we don't do this. Using the screws is much better because it can also be removed when decorating. We only use 10yr sealed battery units and it is unlikley that the householder won't be decorating in that time! A point worth making to your managers Andy.
PS Graeme - the last time you stuck anything to a celing it was asbestos? Thank God I never had to work with you!
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how else would you suggest installing something on the ceiling without drilling it?
you seem to know everything,so next time i need advice on fire detection i will give you a shout.
would never have intentionally a pop at FF,s so get off the high horse.
apologies if i have caused offence.
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Hadn't thought of the decorating aspect, good point!
I (wrongly obviously) didn't take your comment on whether we knew the correct place to put them seriously but instead as the joke I thought it was, sorry!.
Certainly in my brigade (I can't speak for others) we are required to complete a training course to ensure we know about that sort of thing before being let loose on the general public!.
Don't worry B&Q has always been very expensive, I'm surprised you could find someone in there who actually knew the difference between 1/2" screws and no nails!
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Cheers Andy all it required was a polite answer.
I have seen detectors installed by "professional" engineers who are meant to be trained end up in unusual places.
so my question was only half daft.
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Graeme - it wasn't the sticking - to which you would be right - it was the asbestos, that is why I am glad that I haven't worked with you. So not you per se, but the materials.
Still somehwat surprised that you thought to ask us whether we knew where to put them, but maybe it was tongue-in-cheek, didn't seem so that was all.
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Fair enough.Things don't always come across that well on the internet.
A bit like text messages,it will turn the next generation paranoid.
Unfortunately there is still alot of the asbestos in service.They are finding stuff now that i worked on years ago.
not sure what grade it was though.
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Glad you see that I wasn't having ago at you!
I wonder what material we presntly use will be found to be the next horro? MDF may be it - how many people happily saw it without respiratory protection - professionals won't.......
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most pro's don't like you say.I have had to walk out of sites before when builders are cutting breeze blocks with still saws but are too hard to wear a mask.
can't beat seeing a joiner cut up mdf all day coughing his lungs up then sparking up a fag.
picture of health.
i'm going to end up with neck problems when i'm old because i stand looking up at detectors alot when testing.
no worries and sorry about rant
g
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urea formaldehyde and phenol formaldehyde have a whole host of risk phrases attached to them.
pitty when you purchase MDF it doesn't come with any hazard identification or even a UN number or even COSHH information.
But its only for DIY on a Sunday so no one will know.
cough cough splutter.............there goes my other lung!!
if only I'd bought a mask..........Arrrrrrh face fit testing.......urea formaldehyde and phenol formaldehyde it is then!!!
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Graeme, I know what you mean if you saw some of the detectors we go round replacing you'd be seriously worried, that is why I think it is such an important intiative to get trained personnel round to as many properties (especially peoples homes) as possible and get proper functioning smoke alarms fitted.
The advantage of getting local fire stations to carry this out is that it also gives the crews on that station very valuable knowledge of the property should the ever have to visit it operationally!, I can think of at least one incident where I have attended a prop. fire at a house where we'd previously carried out a HFSV fortunatley all persons were accounted for (I have no doubt in this instance that the smoke alarms we'd fitted saved thier lives!). The BA team to go in had the benefit of some previous knowledge of the house layout which had they not been the crew who also fitted the alarms they wouldn't have had.
andy
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spot on Andy!!
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Unfortunately there is still alot of the asbestos in service.They are finding stuff now that i worked on years ago.
not sure what grade it was though.
Up until 20yearsago werent they still using asbestos in Artex?
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We use no nails for smoke alarms - most of the time it sticks and when it dosn't (when I am using it!) it drops off the ceiling a few seconds after you have confidently let go - bounces down the stairs and lands face down on the laminate flooring in the hall - and boy does it stick to that. Takes a bit of explaining away re low level detection etc.