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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: AnthonyB on March 14, 2013, 03:10:07 PM
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A block of high flats from the 60's we have visited mostly has it's original doors, which the LGA guide treats as notional doors.
A Non destructive testing report said that as original 44mm thick solid doors they were suitable for upgrading with strips and seals (as recommended in the LGA guide for the number of floors in this development).
However since then Billy the Burglar (or perhaps even Bobby the Bobby!) has handily performed a destructive test on one of the doors revealing the below
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh130/contactacb/FireNet/Entrancedoorconstruction.jpg)
and the site owner is unsure as to whether it is a fire door as they expect them to be solid timber all the way through.
My thoughts are that it is still a notional door suitable for upgrading as the core is solid (described as plasterboard by the client, not seen it in person), however am I overlooking anything?
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Going back to the sixties the construction of a BS 476 pt 8 fire door.
https://moodle1.carnegiecollege.ac.uk/repository//Construction%20And%20Property%20(Built%20Environment)/eConstruction/Carpentry%20and%20Joinery/Doors%20with%20Task/scos/module/Chapter%205/Page2.htm?chapter=0&page=1
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Excellent link!
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Was nothing said about the letterboxes?
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Yes, when the doors were upgraded with strips & seals, the letterboxes would be changed to Intumescent ones
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Sorry to disagree with some of you chaps, but the construction you're looking at here pre-dates BS476: Part 8: 1972. To me it looks like a BS459: Part 3: 1951 construction - those of you who are old enough to have worked in London in the 60's will know this deemed to satisfy construction which any old joiner could cobble together and claim as a 'half hour firecheck' door - having at one time been tested against the old BS476: Part 1: 1953, which was a negative pressure test. (It may also have been tested against the original BS476: 1932? procedure where they didn't seem to bother much about pressure but that was before even my time).
Having said that though, when I worked at TRADA we did do some testing against the (then) current BS476: Part 8: 1972 with positive pressure. The doors couldn't even provide 20 minutes when constructed as shown in the standard, but once we added fire seals they passed - and I think did the 30 minutes (but it's a long time ago now and I can't remember for certain).
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The doors couldn't even provide 20 minutes when constructed as shown in the standard, but once we added fire seals they passed - and I think did the 30 minutes (but it's a long time ago now and I can't remember for certain).
I stand corrected and as you say, which has been confirmed by other members, if well fitted and intumescent strips provided, the doors have a high potential to achieve a 30 minutes FR.
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The doors couldn't even provide 20 minutes when constructed as shown in the standard, but once we added fire seals they passed - and I think did the 30 minutes (but it's a long time ago now and I can't remember for certain).
I stand corrected and as you say, which has been confirmed by other members, if well fitted and intumescent strips provided, the doors have a high potential to achieve a 30 minutes FR.
I'm not sure that I'd agree that "the doors have a high potential to achieve a 30 minutes FR" - difficult to say without seeing them, but in my experience of doing these kinds of survey there's probably no more than a rather slim chance that they would achieve the full 30 mins, even with intumescent strips installed. The key decision is really whether it's important that they could achieve the full 30 mins F/R, or whether less (e.g. 20 mins or so) is acceptable, because being sure that they'd achieve 30 mins would probably require some expert inspection & verification.
Basically, if the risk was relatively low I'd probably be happy to recommend upgrading, but if for some reason the fire resistance of these doors was particularly important, I'd recommend replacement with 'certified' doorsets.
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After reading the Lakanal House fire inquest I would be making sure that the doors are at least 30 min FR any doubt and they should be replaced with certified door sets. There is no room now for error or guesstimates.
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After reading the Lakanal House fire inquest I would be making sure that the doors are at least 30 min FR any doubt and they should be replaced with certified door sets. There is no room now for error or guesstimates.
Time to revise the LGA Guide then?
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After reading the Lakanal House fire inquest I would be making sure that the doors are at least 30 min FR any doubt and they should be replaced with certified door sets. There is no room now for error or guesstimates.
Time to revise the LGA Guide then?
No; there are thousands of purpose built blocks, housing millions of people, and 99.99% of them have been good, some of them for up to about 60 years - many of them (still) fitted with doors that wouldn't last five minutes in today's test conditions. Because a fire occurred in one block with tragic consequences, and which in my opinion cannot be blamed on one single issue let alone non-BS fire doors/stay-put/unfamiliarity with the layout of the block/etc. it is not a reason to change every single non-certified door in the country. It would be stupidity of the highest order, if there is a knee jerk reaction at the inquest it could be very damaging. Why stop at doors - why not put a full detection system in, make every single room or cupboard a FR compartment and fit a sprinkler system in them all too as the section 12 regulations decreed post Kings Cross? It will soon have the building industry back on its feet but the rest of us will be even deeper in the financial brown stuff for years.
There is an inherent problem with the Lakanal House type design of blocks and maybe the industry could look at them a bit more closely in any review; we've known about this for years but it took a freak incident to highlight the issues. I'm really hoping that some common sense prevails in the findings released today.
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many of them (still) fitted with doors that wouldn't last five minutes in today's test conditions.
I agree with you Golden, except partly with the above statement because I have been to many jobs (built 1960) where bog standard doors have held back a fire for 15/20 minutes allowing us to keep the fire in the room of origin. I believe the one specified above providing well fitted, 2/3 mm gap and fitted with the correct intumescent strip could achieve a 30 min FR.
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I agree with Tam and Silver. We did not fit a third engine to 737s after Kegworth though no doubt the hysterical fringe probably wanted it. It would be lunacy to change all flat entrance doors to certificated doorsets, sheer lunacy.
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Tom I wasn't referring to door such as those pictured - more to other doors that I've seen recently that really do scare me (see picture)!
Colin, as for lunacy you should see some of the other forums discussing this issue and some of the suggestions they're making - see links.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es8CK0-DsHc
http://www.skysaverusa.com/
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There has to be a balanced approach. Yes there are doors out there without any certification or markings to suggest that they are BS complaint but, and its a big but, does that mean they need to be changed?
Several housing associations I know since Lakenhall have undertaken reviews of their high rise stock and highlighted several, (what they concieve to be) non compliant flat entrance doors. They have replaced tenants doors recentlyat considerable expense across their estate.
Leaseholders (owner occupiers) have been written to asking to provide evidence that their flat entrance doors are suitably F/R only to be told "its the door that you (the housing association) installed X years ago" or "but its the original door installed since the block was built"
Sounds like a knee jerk reaction, especially as some assessments only looked at the door from the communal area, and didn't fully check the door. But time, resources and lots of other factors mean housing association take this approach.
Its difficult. Housing associations / providers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I don't wish to sound like I'm supporting a particular individual or organsiation but I have to say CS Todds' guidance document on fire safety in high rise flats is a damn good read, and brings these matters into perspective. The balanced approach, common sense etc.
Non of us could look at a door and say for definite if it was suitably fire resisting unless it was supplied with certificates or had markings but some of us would be able to give a better educated guess than others.
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There's always been a bit of an obsession with doors.
We've changed the way we specify and test structural fire resistance too. Maybe we should have all the beams columns floors and walls replaced too........
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There's always been a bit of an obsession with doors.
We've changed the way we specify and test structural fire resistance too. Maybe we should have all the beams columns floors and walls replaced too........
No... but they should be maintained & if significantly non-compliant with current standards then upgrading might be considered. No different in concept to fire detection & alarm systems, fixed & portable fire-fighting kit etc, etc...
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Yes, like the man says - a bit of common required.
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Keep it quiet but I do find the purpose built flats guide has lots of very good common sense guidance and was very warmly received when it was published - and it is very cheap too unlike those BS documents.
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Wee B, I for one vote that all existing columns and beams in Elland House be removed simultaneously with all existing DCLG staff, apart from yourself, in situ. The world would be no poorer and a much needed car park could be built. You, yourself, could then turn to the task of making AD B understandable by the common man. Once you do that, we can export you to Scotland to do the same for the Scottish technical handbooks, though that task, sadly, would see you out for the rest of your days. Then you could write a new one for NI since they cant be bothered to produce a new TB E.
Retters, please feel free to support an individual or organisation, but only in that order.
Silver, your golden tongue reference to the flats guide is to be admired.