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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Suttonfire on March 13, 2014, 07:05:40 AM
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Hi All,
I'm sure that this topic will have been discussed before, but following a search I can not find a clear answer.
Both Lacors and the Sleeping Accom guidance recommend that communal fire alarm systems are installed in properties converted into self contained flats which were not converted in accordance with 'modern'/post 1991 building regs.
However, the more recent 'purpose built flats' fire safety guide is anti communal fire alarm systems throughout. I'm aware that this guide relates to purpose built flats; however, many of the reasons stated for not having communal fire alarm systems can also be applied to conversions i.e '20.6 'The ability to manage a fire alarm system is rarely possible in a block of flats unless staffed at all times, eg by a concierge or caretaker'
I am reluctant to follow the Lacors guidance that properties converted into self contained flats should have a Grade A LD2 communal system (incorporating MCPs and a control panel). I have a client with a portfolio of conversions and feel that both the initial costs and ongoing maintenance costs/practicalities will be unreasonable. It seems that this system is recommended in Lacors even when the flats have been fitted with 30 minutes fire rated self closing doors. Surely, in these types of properties, if anything is installed within the communal areas, it should be the Grade D LD2 system (recommended as appropriate for 2 storey buildings converted into self contained flats in Lacors), where automatic detection can be installed without the need for a system control panel and call points.
It seems to me that there is a lot of conflicting guidance on this topic and I would appreciate some clarity.
Thanks
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Its all about the standard of fire compartmentation between floors and between flats, together with the fire protection to the staircase and measures to ensure that the staircase can be maintained free of fire and smoke. It is rarely possible to achieve the necessary levels of compartmentation and staircase protection (including ventilation) in a building converted into flats, without these measures it is difficult to support a stay put policy for flats (other than the one on fire) and so an alarm capable of reliably evacuating the whole building is then required.
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But totla evac in flats is only sensible for small buildings. Otherwise its a waste of time - people will ignore it, nobody will re-set it - residents will put a claw hammer through it.
If the passive protection is poor - make it better
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Hi,
I appreciate that it is necessary to have detection and warning in place when compartmentation does not support a stay put policy. However, my view is that it may be better and more manageable in this situation (in a small building) i.e. a 3-4 storey house conversion to install a Grade D LD2 system where there are communal smoke detectors linked to heat detectors inside the flats (by the exits on to the common escape route), with no control panel or call points required. As opposed to installing a full Grade A LD2 system with panel and call points as recommended in LACORS. The grade A system puts the managing agent in a position where they need to test, maintain and manage a system where there are no communal area staff. Furthermore, they are likely to have several properties like this in there portfolio. This introduces a lot of extra cost and management in relation to a grade D system and the benefit does not seem to be that much greater.
Any thoughts?
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But totla evac in flats is only sensible for small buildings. Otherwise its a waste of time - people will ignore it, nobody will re-set it - residents will put a claw hammer through it.
If the passive protection is poor - make it better
I don't disagree but how much will that cost then Wee B? and will residents allow access to do the necessary works ? In my experience the cost to upgrade fire compartmentation is totally disproportionate to the costs associated with the installation of a fire alarm system which costs less and takes less time (disruption) to install (hence why fire compartmentation works weren't probably done in the first place) and the leaseholders / tenants who pay service charges will in my experience also challenge such costs.
This introduces a lot of extra cost and management in relation to a Grade D system and the benefit does not seem to be that much greater.
Any thoughts?
In terms of detector coverage you get the same level of coverage with a Grade D system as you do Grade A... which I appreciate you already know!
However with a Grade A system you get much more control and functionality and system information then you get with a Grade D system. If you have a fire at the premises and the fire service attend the lack of a control panel means they they won't know where the fire is (or atleast where the detector has activated) and they will use their special "fire service key" to get through doors and find out where the fire is.
So what does this in all mean in the real world? Not a lot , other than this: Will the fire service ask you to upgrade to a A grade system if you install a Grade D? Nope. Will a Grade D offer same level of fire detection and warning as a Grade A system? Yep. Will you know if there is a fault on the system if its Grade D and not Grade A? Nope But would residents / leaseholders look at the pnael daily and report back any faults? Probably not (well I say nope but I'm being simplistic). Will the fire service smash more doors in if a fire occurs on the premises and you have a Grade D and not Grade A system fitted? Possibly. But I'm offering a very simplistic overview here.
If you and your client understand those differences between both systems and understand the implications of installing a Grade A vs a Grade D then in my view you should go along with the findings of your risk assessment and consider whether the benefits of a Grade A system over a Grade D are really that practicable. Its obvious you understand why fire warning and detection is required due the fact you cannot guarantee fire compartmentation. You seem to understand the difference between Grade D and Grade A systems. Its therefore up to you what you think is most practicable because Lacors is just a guide, it is not law, and if you can juistify your reasons for installing a Grade D instead of Grade A bearing in mind the simplistic factors discussed above then great.
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Thanks - I feel that in a small conversion (3-4 flats) the benefits of installing a fire alarm panel are outweighed by the on-going costs. I believe that a Grade D system is adequate in these circumstances provided that the detectors are regularly checked (as less cost than full BS 5839 system maintenance).
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I agree with wee B that a full evacuation strategy is ineffective and inappropriate in large blocks. Generally non ADB compliant conversions tend to be smaller buildings though. I think that Suttonfire is looking for a global policy to apply to a whole portfolio of buildings of this type- and I think that each building should be considered on its merits and judgements made accordingly. Generally Part 6 systems are intended for use only within domestic premises and not for communal areas. The cost difference between a small part 1 system and a part 6 system may not be all that significant, as FF says its the other aspects such as maintenance, vandalism, control and human factors that bring the problems.
In the scheme of things we still see plenty of 1930s conversions with lath and plaster ceilings, double and treble inner room layouts, leaded stained glass entrance doors, single staircases and rotten external fire escape ladders hanging off the walls and recently internal walls between flats and the staircase made of hardboard.
I rarely manage to make a non compliant building fully compliant, but always aim to leave it as safe as it can reasonably be in the circumstances and better than I found it.
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Hi I'd like to pick brains again if I may?
The block in question is a large 1930s mansion block, 8 floors, (suspect compartmentation between flats although that is being investigated) nice glass kitchen windows leading onto the escape routes and a variety of front doors with letter boxes, holes and some made of cardboard (more or less) fire doors are the original and wouldn't hold back any smoke flame for any serious amount of time. Access to the roof with possible workers up there, plant rooms in the basement, concierge on site 24/7.
Separate project in hand to try and enforce upgrade works to kitchen windows and front doors and fire doors, however insurance company has recommended a fire alarm, but given no additional detail. A chap from a fire alarm company has been in and recommended L4 M in the common areas and suggested that the owners install LD2.
This just seams a bit too simplistic to me? Although I take on board the many comments and in guidance here about no alarms and no evacuating large blocks - but should we not be looking at alerting residents here if something does catch fire. I can't believe stay-put is the safest option here? Nobody seems able to say that a flat on fire will stay in the flat (there have been a couple of fires already, although they have stayed in the flats, that may be luck) electrical and water risers throughout the building appear compromised on the flat sides and in to the escape corridors.
I just assumed that the alarm designer would be talking about an addressable panel, SDs, possibly with linked HDs in flats that would enable zoning and evac in stages? My understanding is that L4 M without any linking in the flats will surely just alert people in the common area, people in other flats could carry on snoozing or watching telly, not realising that they are at risk? is the solution just to make the bells in the common areas jolly loud??
Your thoughts greatly appreciated and a recommendation for any experienced alarm designer in this field if necessary!
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Hi I'd like to pick brains again if I may?
The block in question is a large 1930s mansion block, 8 floors, (suspect compartmentation between flats although that is being investigated) nice glass kitchen windows leading onto the escape routes and a variety of front doors with letter boxes, holes and some made of cardboard (more or less) fire doors are the original and wouldn't hold back any smoke flame for any serious amount of time. Access to the roof with possible workers up there, plant rooms in the basement, concierge on site 24/7.
Separate project in hand to try and enforce upgrade works to kitchen windows and front doors and fire doors, however insurance company has recommended a fire alarm, but given no additional detail. A chap from a fire alarm company has been in and recommended L4 M in the common areas and suggested that the owners install LD2.
This just seams a bit too simplistic to me? Although I take on board the many comments and in guidance here about no alarms and no evacuating large blocks - but should we not be looking at alerting residents here if something does catch fire. I can't believe stay-put is the safest option here? Nobody seems able to say that a flat on fire will stay in the flat (there have been a couple of fires already, although they have stayed in the flats, that may be luck) electrical and water risers throughout the building appear compromised on the flat sides and in to the escape corridors.
I just assumed that the alarm designer would be talking about an addressable panel, SDs, possibly with linked HDs in flats that would enable zoning and evac in stages? My understanding is that L4 M without any linking in the flats will surely just alert people in the common area, people in other flats could carry on snoozing or watching telly, not realising that they are at risk? is the solution just to make the bells in the common areas jolly loud??
Your thoughts greatly appreciated and a recommendation for any experienced alarm designer in this field if necessary!
My immediate thought here is conversion job/not purpose built/suspect compartmentation and so full and immediate evacuation with warning by L2.
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Thanks! That's where I think my brain was going.
Its a purpose built block - does that make a difference in this case given that's its got so many issues?
Also, re L2 - does this mean getting HDs in the flats as well, linked to the SDs in the common areas? What I think is required is , if there's a fire in a flat, someone knows and someone knows quickly. Many of these flats stay unoccupied and owners cannot therefore be relied on to respond. If there's a heat detector in the flat, if activated, it could be linked into the panel? (24/7 concierge) who could alert emergency services and set general alarm throughout the building to get the evac underway.
If there's SD in the common corridors, stairwells and high risk area (plant room in basement) - if there's a fire (not that remote a possibility, smoking is a continual issue along with bad, damaged carpet with nice patches of cooking oil where residents dump stuff) in the common areas, alarm would sound, concierge would call emergency services and people start to evacuate.
If this is right, does anyone have any experience of managing such a block - and what were the problems?? I'm just running through them in my head - access to the flats to install, access to the flats to maintain, how to achieve 75db at the bed head. How to enforce (privately owned flats etc etc)...
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People will still ignore the alarm so its pointless. It only serves to make you feel good about yourself
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Thanks! That's where I think my brain was going.
Its a purpose built block - does that make a difference in this case given that's its got so many issues?
Also, re L2 - does this mean getting HDs in the flats as well, linked to the SDs in the common areas? What I think is required is , if there's a fire in a flat, someone knows and someone knows quickly. Many of these flats stay unoccupied and owners cannot therefore be relied on to respond. If there's a heat detector in the flat, if activated, it could be linked into the panel? (24/7 concierge) who could alert emergency services and set general alarm throughout the building to get the evac underway.
If there's SD in the common corridors, stairwells and high risk area (plant room in basement) - if there's a fire (not that remote a possibility, smoking is a continual issue along with bad, damaged carpet with nice patches of cooking oil where residents dump stuff) in the common areas, alarm would sound, concierge would call emergency services and people start to evacuate.
If this is right, does anyone have any experience of managing such a block - and what were the problems?? I'm just running through them in my head - access to the flats to install, access to the flats to maintain, how to achieve 75db at the bed head. How to enforce (privately owned flats etc etc)...
Sorry I read your post wrong. Purpose built would but when and to what standard.
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First bit of advice is don't let an alarm designer tell you what type of alarm you need and second bit of advice is get someone down there who knows what they are doing - i.e. a fire engineer or 'proper' fire risk assessor. To make any more recommendations or accept any more advice on the information you have given would be folly. :-X
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Thanks for responses. 1930s. Good substantial build, but lots of services been added since, hence concern. F&RS have also asked for alarm in addition to insurance company.
As a major managing agent has just been fined ?100K for NOT installing alarm as suggested in FRA, I want to make sure that this block isn't a sitting duck as advice is to fit alarm, the difficulty is knowing which type, had so much conflicting advice.
Does anyone know a good fire engineer as suggested by previous poster?
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Whereabouts in the country are you PG?
The F&RS have no right to ask for an alarm but may give advice given under a building regulations consultation. If you are talking about the managing agent in West London that wasn't in regard to not installing a fire alarm - there is also a recent case of an assessor being sued by leaseholders for recommending an alarm when one wasn't required! Personally I would do anything possible to avoid installing a fire detection and alarm system in a block of flats from both a safe evacuation and a management perspective. I say this having risk assessed hundreds of blocks and until a few years ago have turned up at quite a few when they were on fire and I can assure you that evacuation involves a risk that should only be taken when absolutely necessary.
I would endorse Kurnal's wise words of a few posts ago that each block should be taken on its own merits but this scenario is unusual to me - unless it is deck access with more than one staircase then some of the items you have described would start to make sense. You can't stage an alarm system in this setting as its either stay put or simultaneous and immediate evacuation.
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Hi Golden - thanks for taking the time to come back on this, the property is in London, so if you know anyone local?
There are two staircases, one is "protected" by really bad fire doors, the other is the main accommodation stair which is only protected (again by bad fire doors) on a couple of levels, most floors are open on that side of the building so you come out of your flat doors and there is the lift and the stairs.
Escape is possible in either direction from the vast majority of the flats, as you can go round the whole triangle on each level accessing either staircase. As you go higher up the building though there are some flats that are in dead end conditions so anyone coming out of these can only go in one direction past, maybe one or two flats, before they reach that same route from which escape is possible in both directions.
Not sure what deck access is, but the building is built, kind of like a triangle, around a central, open core. The flats (with their kitchen windows and dodgy doors) open out onto these corridors. The opposite side of each corridor has windows all round, which look into this open core. (Think of a sausage bent into a triangle and you have the image!) Just to add to the fun, there are several shops and restaurants beneath, their skylight roofs are level with floor one of the property and fill this inner core. From the first floor up to the roof in this core is just open space. There are 3 separate extraction systems which lead from the restaurants beneath, are affixed to the brickwork of this inner core and finish are roof level of the residential part (apparently this extraction has caught fire as well in the past).
I too hate the idea of evacuation (most of the residents don't speak English, a lot have medical issues, most are short term rental) and getting the message across will be nigh-on impossible.
Golden, would a fire engineer be able to confirm if a stay put is still safe, I thought a structural engineer was perhaps the way to go? Or maybe I should organise a working party and pay both to come along?! I'm beginning to feel stuck between a rock and a hard place here!
Need something pretty solid to be able to ignore the insurance company and the "advice" from F&RS and not install.
Thanks in advance for further thoughts and any competent person recommendations.
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Deck access is used to describe open decks/external balcony to access the flats such as in the picture below. If you have alternate means of escape it is not necessary to upgrade the wall/doors/windows opening onto the deck to a fire resisting standard. Where escape is possible only in a single direction upgrade to 1.1 m only.
I've sent you a message too.
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I agree with Golden, it is much better to resolve the weaknesses that prevent stay put being applied than to paper over the cracks with a full alarm and detection system that will create problems for both occupiers and owners alike, though it is a lot less of an issue if there is a concierge - a rare treasure indeed these days! In terms of the alarm spec I would agree with you that if a full evacuation strategy really is the only possibility then it is essential to raise the alarm before the fire and smoke penetrate to affect the escape routes. In these cases L4 is unlikely to be sufficient. As for fire risk in escape routes with a concierge on site there can surely be no excuse?
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Hi all thanks again, I get what you mean re deck access now Golden, sadly all the flats lead onto an enclosed corridor, albeit one with lots of windows. Maybe that's the way forward, if I break all the windows on the opposite side of the corridors, I get deck access then don't have to worry about the doors or kitchen windows! ;D
Obviously I need to dig a lot deeper on the one, and def need a fire engineer to give expert view on the building, but thanks to everybody who's given a view based on their experience - that, as always is so helpful and much more useful I feel than some of the guidance out there.
Shame that asbestos stuff is banned, asbestos suits all round could have been an answer!
Thanks for message Golden - I'll be in touch.