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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: David Rooney on April 08, 2014, 03:59:53 PM
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A generalised question men....
Very large property, basement to first, approximately 60 rooms in total - building is around 60x20m.
Technically a single family occupancy however there is staff accommodation and also 4 bedrooms to be used by VIP guests on occasion.
Regarding designing a fire detection and alarm system, is it reasonable to spec a pt6 Grade A LD2 system throughout with 75dB at the bedhead in all bedrooms including the visitors/staff bedrooms and providing "minimal" sounders though out the general house hold?
(I realise the family bedrooms would only need 85dB at the door)
Or because of the obligation to protect staff (and maybe visitors) should we be looking for 60/65dB throughout the general living areas in which case we may as well spec a pt 1 L2 system ....??
On a similar vein, would Part M apply to all the WCs likely to be used by staff/visitors - ie. sounder beacons in all toilets??
Many thanks
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A bit confused on the single family occupancy bit with staff and visitors. If it is purely a single family occupancy then pt 6 makes some recommendations on homes over 200m2.
However, I would think based on the limited information it sounds like the fire safety order applies.
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The place employs one full time butler and a maid.
Should that mean "65dB" throughout and treat the house like a Hotel ??
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The place employs one full time butler and a maid.
Should that mean "65dB" throughout and treat the house like a Hotel ??
Perhaps not then, I refer to my first paragraph.
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Who are the VIP guests? Is the situation like when we all invite friends to visit and stay overnight?
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I was sure there was something that said that domestic staff dont cause a premises to become non-domestic. But now I can't find it :-\
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I was sure there was something that said that domestic staff dont cause a premises to become non-domestic. But now I can't find it :-\
Thats what I thought WB and it has been covered in the past. They come under H&S@W as employees but the premises are still a private family dwelling. (Depending on who the VIP guests are).
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the guests may be foreign dignitarys ....
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An ambassador's or similar residence? Senior Military? Minister's freebee weekend retreat? Bishops residence? Your house David?
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Part M????
Does Building Regs 2010 actually apply to this fantasy scenario David?
I personally would need much, much more information to give anything like a meaningfull response to the question.
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I would agree with the idea that the presence of domestic staff does not change it from a domestic property as with the HSAWA. However with the guests surely the critical point is do the guests pay to stay there? or does the owner profit commercially from them staying there? (more iffy). The actual rank of the person staying there should not matter. (If it did Dotty would never be able to stay anywhere)
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I was considering the place could be a private residence for a family where there was a means for accommodating others who are not paying guests and not actually friends of the family. Take the likes of Chequers which is a private residence for a family. There are times the family plays host to visiting dignitaries and others and not for gain. They may not necessarily be friends either.
I, like most others, have people staying at my private residence. They don't pay and they would be people who I invite as friends or acquaintances to stay (at my expense)
Chequers would be a similar situation where friends, acquaintances and those who become new best friends of the family would stay (again at my expense).
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Surely Chequers and similar places will come under the general category of Crown Property.
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Sorry men ... tis an Ambassador's Residence ... arguably the British Government profit from the guests that stay there although they will be non paying. !!
I was basically proposing a Grade A LD2 with 85db at the bedroom doors of the Ambo's family, 75db at everyone else's bed head - guests and staff, and no minimum alarm level set through out the remainder of the property other than being "audible" as per pt 6.
But then I thought about the implications of staff or guests being hearing impaired, hence the question of whether Part M beacons in WCs to EN54-23 is relevant and if the presence of guests whether they're paying or not, would require a minimum alarm level throughout the property ....
How far does the duty of care extend ???!
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Sorry men ... tis an Ambassador's Residence ... ...
How far does the duty of care extend ???!
How cost-sensitive is the project?
In terms of risk
- the number and location of bedrooms may change in future, and at short notice, depending on the number of guests
- guests of this calibre may bring their own servants or security staff, who may be accommodated in non- 'guest bedrooms' or even z-beds in cupboards
- large social gatherings with people who are unfamiliar with the property
- alcohol may be taken (even in a Muslim country there may be a Communications Room to handle urgent queries about the 1969 VAT returns
- guests and visiting staff may not speak English
- smoking restrictions may not be observed
- there may be security restrictions on means of escape, and risks other than fire need to be considered, eg bomb threats
- furnishings are likely to be luxurious (high fire load) and expensive; risk to property may be substantial
- 'official things' may have to be rescued, made secure, or destroyed as part of the emergency management procedure
- injury to or death of a visitor could be extremely embarrassing
In terms of fire detection I wouldn't be thinking of anything less than would be provided for a hotel. In terms of sounders I would be looking at a full Voice Alarm system to give information and direction.
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The question with an Ambassador's residence is is it subject to diplomatic immunity. I can't find anything in the RRO except
Application to visiting forces, etc.
51. This Order applies to a visiting force or an international headquarters or defence
organisation designated for the purposes of the International Headquarters and Defence
Organisations Act 1964(a) only to the extent that it applies to the Crown.
On the other hand you have been asked to advise therefore they want it.
My feeling would be treat it as a hotel.
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Yes its interesting with respect to 'immunity' - I recently carried out an FRA on an embassy and couldn't find any reason to state that it didn't come under the RRO.
WRT the original question I wouldn't view this as an issue of compliance but as the best protection that could be afforded with regard to visitor safety combined with the aesthetics of the building. I'd be looking at good AFD coverage and don't think there's much difference between part 1 or 6 but what level of protection you specify and how you are going to achieve that protection. I can't imagine that the occupiers are going to want obtrusive fittings so you may need some research to find a suitable system.
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Yes its interesting with respect to 'immunity' - I recently carried out an FRA on an embassy and couldn't find any reason to state that it didn't come under the RRO.
WRT the original question I wouldn't view this as an issue of compliance but as the best protection that could be afforded with regard to visitor safety combined with the aesthetics of the building. I'd be looking at good AFD coverage and don't think there's much difference between part 1 or 6 but what level of protection you specify and how you are going to achieve that protection. I can't imagine that the occupiers are going to want obtrusive fittings so you may need some research to find a suitable system.
I think it does come under. It just cant be prosecuted.
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I bet Alex the Fish wont let the Lousy Flipping Extra Pathetic Authority into the Scottish embassy in London once we have one.
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Now, that will be something to see. What a visitor attraction it could be! Should be interesting doing a new build or major refurb to house them. Just hink of the arguments over which regs will apply or be most onerous!
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Yes its interesting with respect to 'immunity' - I recently carried out an FRA on an embassy and couldn't find any reason to state that it didn't come under the RRO.
Quite right. but be careful may be a building owned by our government which has been leased to a foreign power
, when i say leased don't take it as leased but like almost given to them. well not given to them but you know what i mean. there are reciprical arrangements with those powers. a diplomat may have diplomatic immunity. dont mean the premises does. lets see what big man font of all knowledge colin todd sez about that. bet he has an answer thats helpful and informative.
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Yes it would have to be a big building, just think of all those people who suddenly become natives of a foreign non Eu country who will require work permits, visas etc.
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Yes it would have to be a big building, just think of all those people who suddenly become natives of a foreign non Eu country who will require work permits, visas etc.
Scotland?
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Perhaps, when we get independence, we can invade the North and take over Cleveland. By the way where have you been Clevers?
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Colin, when you get independence the north will be the south.
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Thanks for responses men, obviously no one has any money to spend on fire detection as we are all broke so they will only pay for the minimum needed.
Hence the key questions that I see remain ....
In these circumstances is 85db at the family bedroom doors acceptable as per reasons of familiarity given in pt 6
75db in guests / staff rooms is taken as read
The usual 60 - 65 db around the general living spaces ...... yes or no??
Possibility of deaf guests - should we consider beacons in WCs as Part M .... is it a requirement or a nicety in this case??
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Perhaps, when we get independence, we can invade the North and take over Cleveland. By the way where have you been Clevers?
Would you want it? its proper grim.thanks for asking dotty ive been cashing in all the NI ive paid to the NHS all these years by taking board at my local hospital. food was bad but nurses great.
David 60-65dBA should be ok. Unless its going to cost the earth fit beacons in the bathrooms. what provision you putting in for deaf guests elsewhere?
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If and when Caladonia gets UDI will all the invaders be shipped back south and made to reapply for a work permit?
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There is no requirement to cater for deaf guests .... tis our discretion / design.
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just wondering why you would install beacons in bathrooms when you are not making provision anywhere else? you looking at buddy system ?
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Bet there was no beacons in the toilets in your NHS place , Clevers. I would question if they even cleaned the toilets. I had some lovely food at the Guildford Nuffield recently.
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just wondering why you would install beacons in bathrooms when you are not making provision anywhere else? you looking at buddy system ?
This goes back to an earlier question ... how far does the duty of care extend ?
In the end it is a big private dwelling. I think beacons in WCs is reasonable but would we also expect to see them "in the library... meeting rooms .... dining rooms" etc??
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Bet there was no beacons in the toilets in your NHS place , Clevers.
nah, dont need them either nurse led evac theyd come get me if i was mutton. dave, presuming you say its reasonable in the WCs cos yer VIP may lock door so no one can burst in and warn him of fire? so in all other areas if you can use a sort of buddy system then beacons not really necessary
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Is it normal to take a buddy to the toilet Cleve?
I suppose in political circles it is quite normal.
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did I say it was nearlythere? u obviously know more about those dizzy heights than me