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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: lingmoor on May 06, 2014, 12:05:42 PM
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Can anyone please tell me what constitutes a HMO? is it just the fact that the residences share common areas such as a kitchen, lounge, etc
There are NHS staff residences where residents have their own bedroom but have shared rooms as mentioned above. Rent is paid to the Hospital Trust.
Looking through the LACORS guide it says that "shared housed are described as HMO's where the whole property has been rented out by an identifiable group" and it mentions the residents 'not being related'
such as students or work colleagues...so I assume these are HMO's...or are they!
Para 35.3 says there may be 'grey areas' and it could be 'shared houses...oh good!
thanks
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It gets kind of messy.
The definition is in the Housing Act (2004 ish) but some HMOs don't need a license.
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And once you have licensed your HMO you may need to be registered. Some local authorities differ and some may indeed impose additional HMO licensing. Some will want part 6 AFD and some will require part 1; your guess is as good as mine with respect to single staircases and maximum travel distance. Luckily many are traditional construction with brick walls that you can beat your head against!!
Some guidance from the residential landlords association -
http://www.rla.org.uk/landlord/guides/housing_act/docs/all/what_is_an_hmo.shtml
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Check out http://www.firesafe.org.uk/houses-in-multiple-occupation/ it may help but the final arbiters is the Housing Authority.
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Can anyone please tell me what constitutes a HMO? is it just the fact that the residences share common areas such as a kitchen, lounge, etc
There are NHS staff residences where residents have their own bedroom but have shared rooms as mentioned above. Rent is paid to the Hospital Trust.
Looking through the LACORS guide it says that "shared housed are described as HMO's where the whole property has been rented out by an identifiable group" and it mentions the residents 'not being related'
such as students or work colleagues...so I assume these are HMO's...or are they!
Para 35.3 says there may be 'grey areas' and it could be 'shared houses...oh good!
thanks
Is it because you don't know whether to do a FRA or not LM?
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Crucially, the law is completely different in Scotland, where an HMO is much more tightly defined and subject to more stringent licensing.
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Thanks all for your replies and the good links
No NT the FRA is done... it was really more on the lines if it has to be licenced or not
I have since found out that if a HMO is managed by a public body it does not need to be licensed (or if it isn't more than three storeys with five or more occupants)
Cheers all
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Not strictly true,
The Housing Act 2004 introduced three different types of licensing, two of which specifically relate to HMOs:
1. Mandatory HMO licensing (All three storey HMO's)
2. Additional HMO licensing (Can include two storey HMO's at the local HA discretion.)
3. Selective licensing of all privately rented housing in specific areas (further criteria apply).
Local councils have discretion to introduce additional licensing of other types of HMOs which are not subject to mandatory licensing, including poorly converted self-contained flats (also known as Section 257 HMOs after the section in the Act which defines them). This may be in a defined geographical area or across the whole of a council?s area. These schemes are aimed at dealing with situations that cannot be improved by any other means. The council has to consult local landlords before introducing additional licensing and they have to publicise it when it comes into force.
http://nationalhmonetwork.com/hmo-licensing.php
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Thanks Tom
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Hi Lingmoor. They are shared houses.
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Hi Clevelandfire
I expect you know but anyway, this is what the LACORS guide says about 'shared housing'
"There is no legal definition of a 'shared house' and so this term can sometimes lead to confusion. Whilst shared houses fall within the legal definition of a HMO and will be licensable where lincensing criteria are met, it is recognised that they can often present a lower fire risk than traditional bed-sit type HMO's due ti their characteristics.
For the purpose of this guidance, shared houses are described as HMO's where the whole property has been rented out by identifiable groups of sharers, such as students, work colleagues or friends as joint tenants"....and it goes on about social interaction etc
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to me if they are all work colleagues which they are loosely speaking id call it a shared house. you can relax standards in shared houses even though they are still classed as h.m.o.s.
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to me if they are all work colleagues which they are loosely speaking id call it a shared house. you can relax standards in shared houses even though they are still classed as h.m.o.s.
You have got the "to me" bit correct CF but not sure about the rest. I think legislation has already defined what HMOs are.
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I work from home. Do I have to carry out a fire safety risk assessment in respect of my home?
No. The legislation is not intended to cover those working from home if the principal use of the premises remains a private dwelling. If, however, the premises form part of a business (even though there may be no employees) or a room/rooms are made available to paying guests on a commercial basis (such as in a guest house/bed and breakfast), then the premises may no longer be considered a ?private dwelling? and may therefore be subject to the fire safety legislation for as long as they are used for that purpose. (Unfortunately it does not give the source)
I found the above on a legal website and it make sense and I think this would apply to your situation. Although it could be classed as a workplace for the cleaner the principle use is as a private dwelling and therefore not subject to the RR(FS)O. (No FRA required)
However the NHS does have a duty of care to the cleaner and should at least give some training in fire safety to ensure the cleaner has sufficient information to make a decision to leave, if he/she considers the premises a hazard.
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Check out on the Scottish Government website item 4 and I am fairly certain this applies to the rest of the UK.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises)
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Can anyone please tell me what constitutes a HMO? is it just the fact that the residences share common areas such as a kitchen, lounge, etc
There are NHS staff residences where residents have their own bedroom but have shared rooms as mentioned above. Rent is paid to the Hospital Trust.
Looking through the LACORS guide it says that "shared housed are described as HMO's where the whole property has been rented out by an identifiable group" and it mentions the residents 'not being related'
such as students or work colleagues...so I assume these are HMO's...or are they!
Para 35.3 says there may be 'grey areas' and it could be 'shared houses...oh good!
thanks
Lingmoor - are the staff renting just the bedroom? Is it a condition of their employment that they live in the block? A group of colleagues who get together to rent a flat is one thing but compulsory residence in an accommodation block where rent is charged to each individual against use of a room is something else. I have come across both scenarios in the NHS.
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Check out on the Scottish Government website item 4 and I am fairly certain this applies to the rest of the UK.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises)
4. I work from home. Do I have to carry out a fire safety risk assessment in respect of my home?
No. The legislation is not intended to cover those working from home if the principal use of the premises remains a private dwelling. If, however, the premises form part of a business (even though there may be no employees) or a room/rooms are made available to paying guests on a commercial basis (such as in a guest house/bed and breakfast), then the premises may no longer be considered a "private dwelling" and may therefore be subject to the fire safety legislation for as long as they are used for that purpose.
There is still a little problem with the wording of this section Tom. If like many others i use a corner of the kitchen table to do my business does that make the whole house an office environment?
I suspect that very much depends on where the tipping point is. I do know of a situation in NI where a large dwelling provided 3 rooms for B&B and BC want to redefine the purpose group of the building. The dwelling owner successfully argued that because the B&B areas of the building made up less than half of the building it was still, in principle a, dwelling.
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Almosthere, I am in NI all next week. Can I come and have supper at a corner of your kitchen table, but without being a paying guest.
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Almosthere, I am in NI all next week. Can I come and have supper at a corner of your kitchen table, but without being a paying guest.
No. There is only room for me otherwise I might get stung from BC for using my private place for business use and entertaining business associates. Anyway as you are half Irish why have you not been here supporting the bike race?
Which I must add by edit has been a fantastic and wonderful experience for NI, despite the rain.
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I am not invited to Nearly Towers then?
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Check out on the Scottish Government website item 4 and I am fairly certain this applies to the rest of the UK.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Justice/public-safety/Fire-Rescue/FireLaw/FireLaw/FAQ/Premises)
4. I work from home. Do I have to carry out a fire safety risk assessment in respect of my home?
No. The legislation is not intended to cover those working from home if the principal use of the premises remains a private dwelling. If, however, the premises form part of a business (even though there may be no employees) or a room/rooms are made available to paying guests on a commercial basis (such as in a guest house/bed and breakfast), then the premises may no longer be considered a "private dwelling" and may therefore be subject to the fire safety legislation for as long as they are used for that purpose.
There is still a little problem with the wording of this section Tom. If like many others i use a corner of the kitchen table to do my business does that make the whole house an office environment?
I suspect that very much depends on where the tipping point is. I do know of a situation in NI where a large dwelling provided 3 rooms for B&B and BC want to redefine the purpose group of the building. The dwelling owner successfully argued that because the B&B areas of the building made up less than half of the building it was still, in principle a, dwelling.
Slightly different in England and Wales, I seem to remember a case in Wales where a hotel/accommodation owner claimed that he only let accommodation a couple of weekends a year so the premises didn't fall under the FSO. Lost the case I believe. Got the details at work. Will find them.
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I am not invited to Nearly Towers then?
All you want is to eat my food and drink my booze Dot. All of it.
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OK Almost, I will bring the drink. Get mrs Almost to do the food?
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For a single domestic dwelling the FSO does not apply, but if the occupier employs a contractor, (cleaner, plumber) the house is now is their workplace, but because the contractor is unlikely to have control, he/she is not the RP, consequently no FRA, but I think the contractor does have a duty of care.
However the problem arises when the owner or occupier does have control and uses part of a single private dwelling for non-domestic use. It then could be argued it does come under the FSO, but it seems to depend on the purpose it is used for and the degree of use. A small office doesn't but a B&B does.
It could be argued that the cleaner's employer (NHS) does have control, therefore is the RP and should conduct a FRA. However because it?s a low hazard situation a FRA would not be required, because in other domestic premises it would also not apply? It appears it depends on risk hazard, a cleaner, daytime risk, low hazard, and a B&B night-time risk, high hazard.
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However the problem arises when the owner or occupier does have control and uses part of a single private dwelling for non-domestic use. It then could be argued it does come under the FSO, but it seems to depend on the purpose it is used for and the degree of use. A small office doesn't but a B&B does.
Using that argument Tom if you invited people to stay with you over the weekend has the dwelling become a B&B for that period?
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If they are guests then you are not charging them then it is not a non-domestic use, not a business. I don't fully understand NT, I am trying to see where the cut off point is, a small office is OK a B&B isn't, why?
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to me if they are all work colleagues which they are loosely speaking id call it a shared house. you can relax standards in shared houses even though they are still classed as h.m.o.s.
You have got the "to me" bit correct CF but not sure about the rest. I think legislation has already defined what HMOs are.
for crying out loud i dont and have never denied that this is a HMO. i think you and others need to read the legislation and guidance out there about this very issue it is so clear cut that even Colin Todd would understand it. actually i think my grandaughter who is 7 would. can we move on now? they say the fire rescue service is totally uneducated when it comes to fire safety. i think quite a few non fire service personnel are as well.
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He's some more definitions to confuse things even more.
1. An entire house or flat which is let to 3 or more tenants who form 2 or more households and who share a kitchen, bathroom or toilet.
2. A house which has been converted entirely into bedsits or other non-self-contained accommodation and which is let to 3 or more tenants who form two or more households and who share kitchen, bathroom or toilet facilities.
3. A converted house which contains one or more flats which are not wholly self-contained (ie the flat does not contain within it a kitchen, bathroom and toilet) and which is occupied by 3 or more tenants who form two or more households.
4. A building which is converted entirely into self-contained flats if the conversion did not meet the standards of the 1991 Building Regulations and more than one-third of the flats are let on short-term tenancies.
5. In order to be an HMO the property must be used as the tenants? only or main residence and it should be used solely or mainly to house tenants. Properties let to students and migrant workers will be treated as their only or main residence and the same will apply to properties which are used as domestic refuges.
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Anyway...Schedule 14 of the Housing Act 2004 exempts NHS residences from being classed as a HMO for the purpose of te Act
good init