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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: GLSafety on December 11, 2014, 07:58:10 PM

Title: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: GLSafety on December 11, 2014, 07:58:10 PM
I wonder if you could help me?

Just carried out a fire risk assessment on a 2 storey HMO, only to find out there were no fire doors on any of the bedrooms, living room and kitchen. On questioning this, the landlord stated that from the visit of the HMO officer from the local authority said that they are not needed as there are fire escape windows. The local authority is Dudley in the West Mids.

I would prefer to have a protected route with fire doors rather than have someone trying to escape through a 1st floor window should there be a fire. What are your thoughts on this?

Put to have no fire door on a kitchen!
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 11, 2014, 09:06:37 PM
I wonder if you could help me?

Just carried out a fire risk assessment on a 2 storey HMO, only to find out there were no fire doors on any of the bedrooms, living room and kitchen. On questioning this, the landlord stated that from the visit of the HMO officer from the local authority said that they are not needed as there are fire escape windows. The local authority is Dudley in the West Mids.

I would prefer to have a protected route with fire doors rather than have someone trying to escape through a 1st floor window should there be a fire. What are your thoughts on this?

Put to have no fire door on a kitchen!
One would have to ask the HMO officer what advice he actually gave is. I cant see even a  cowboy assessor giving this advice.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: colin todd on December 11, 2014, 10:33:45 PM
It would be fine for a 2 storey single family dwelling.  If it is a low risk HMO it would also be fine for Lacors.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: Dinnertime Dave on December 11, 2014, 11:16:41 PM
One would have to ask the HMO officer what advice he actually gave is. I cant see even a  cowboy assessor giving this advice.

sorry nearlythere, Colin is right. 2 storey HMO allows either a protected route or window escape. Now where do I tie this horse?
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 12, 2014, 07:05:27 AM
One would have to ask the HMO officer what advice he actually gave is. I cant see even a  cowboy assessor giving this advice.

sorry nearlythere, Colin is right. 2 storey HMO allows either a protected route or window escape. Now where do I tie this horse?
We wouldnt put up with that in ni dont think.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 12, 2014, 07:18:31 AM
One would have to ask the HMO officer what advice he actually gave is. I cant see even a  cowboy assessor giving this advice.

sorry nearlythere, Colin is right. 2 storey HMO allows either a protected route or window escape. Now where do I tie this horse?
We wouldnt put up with that in ni dont think.
Are we tslking about a window escape from every room?
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 12, 2014, 02:11:16 PM
And to think of the trouble we are having over here getting new "Grand Designs" open aspect type two storey dwellings through BC with one reading that the Technical Booklet to the B Regs requires that, in order to have open aspect main stairway from first floor discharging into very open aspect ground floor, in addition to the openable window from every room, an alternative protected stairway should be provided from the first floor.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: colin todd on December 12, 2014, 10:31:14 PM
You can if your stairway discharges on the lower floor within 3m of a door, Almost.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: colin todd on December 12, 2014, 10:32:19 PM
Suppers, I agree with your agreement with me, but I didn't understand the bit about the horse.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: Dinnertime Dave on December 12, 2014, 11:04:28 PM
Suppers, I agree with your agreement with me, but I didn't understand the bit about the horse.

I think Nearlythere is referring to us as cowboy risk assessors, clearly I'm not because I enforce. Well until the end of March anyway.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 13, 2014, 07:02:47 AM
You can if your stairway discharges on the lower floor within 3m of a door, Almost.
Everybody knows that Dot except BC types. And thats the problem.
It is a simple case that they fail to read their own guidance properly because of the punctuation.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: colin todd on December 13, 2014, 01:10:45 PM
Forgive them, Almost, as they do not have a Scottish education.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 14, 2014, 07:17:57 AM
Forgive them, Almost, as they do not have a Scottish education.
Is your punctuation correct Dot? Just asking mind.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: lyledunn on December 14, 2014, 10:11:09 AM
GLS, we have in NI a document that gives guidance on such matters. Unfortunately it is dated and seems to be cherry-picked by inspecting officers. Reference to it shows that your situation would be category B and providing each storey has at least 1 escape window, no storey is over 4.5m and there are no more than 6 non-vulnerable adults, then fire doors are not required.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 14, 2014, 10:37:23 AM
That to me creates an issue Lyle. We are leaving the landlord to determine the vulnerability of the residents as and when occupancys change. It requires landlords and probably managing agents to carry out an assessment of every occupant to determine their level of vulnerability to ensure that the premises fire safety measures are appropriate.
Do we think that is something that would or even could be done?
The other issue is determining the level of risk associated with a particular category of people. Can we always class students e.g. as high risk because of what we think they might get up to?
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: GLSafety on December 15, 2014, 11:15:31 AM
Thanks for your help, There is a fire escape window at each bedroom. With regards to the tenants, the ones that I saw looked able bodied. But who's to say they area?
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: colin todd on December 19, 2014, 11:16:04 PM
Almost, cannot see anything wrong with the punctuation, but as NI have grammar schools, I am willing to learn from you.  If it was to the comma before your name, you were referring, I seem to recall that it takes the place of Oh when you are addressing someone in Latin ( or maybe Greek or maybe both).  Hope this helps with your FRAs.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: kurnal on December 20, 2014, 07:30:12 AM
The problem is the order of Colin's words. But remember the Scottish education system gave us the following "there's a moose a loose around this house" and "Donald where's ya  troosers" so don't set the bar too high NT!
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 20, 2014, 08:34:44 AM
Not forgetting the Glasgay Malkie.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 20, 2014, 08:36:47 AM
Almost, cannot see anything wrong with the punctuation, but as NI have grammar schools, I am willing to learn from you.  If it was to the comma before your name, you were referring, I seem to recall that it takes the place of Oh when you are addressing someone in Latin ( or maybe Greek or maybe both).  Hope this helps with your FRAs.
Lorem vanitas sapientissimus
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: colin todd on December 20, 2014, 07:11:05 PM
itis apis potand a tino ne
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: nearlythere on December 21, 2014, 09:45:15 AM
Almost, cannot see anything wrong with the punctuation, but as NI have grammar schools, I am willing to learn from you.  If it was to the comma before your name, you were referring, I seem to recall that it takes the place of Oh when you are addressing someone in Latin ( or maybe Greek or maybe both).  Hope this helps with your FRAs.
Lorem vanitas sapientissimus
I tsu reis.
Title: Re: Fire door requirement on a 2 storey HMO
Post by: Psuedonym on December 22, 2014, 09:41:37 PM
Ref Windows escapes: I was asked by a "landlady" if I could provide a number of escape ladders for her premises' windows. A two storey with existing fire escapes and stairs.
So along I trot to find the rooms were not exactly residential,  more for short term visits and the ladders were needed for the visits from the local vice. 🔞