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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Suttonfire on July 19, 2015, 11:22:03 AM
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Hi All,
I'm doing some research on the above and as part of this I would appreciate some views on what you would typically expect to find installed in terms of fire protection equipment (subject to risk assessment) installed in a fully enclosed car park, i.e. type and grade of detection and warning, mechanical smoke extraction, sprinklers/other extinguishing equipment etc
thanks
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I suppose there are obvious questions like is it above or below ground, how big is it and is it in an area subject to local enactments? Is it part of a building complex or a stand alone car park?
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The submissions I've seen seem to rely on the enclosed car park being no worse than a code (ADB) compliant one. This was done via CFD modelling.
Surprisingly, the model showed it to be no worse - even after pointing out the fire sizes they used were incorrect.
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Goole for "fire safety in enclosed car park" you will get lots of stuff, like http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0041/00418073.pdf check out the scope.
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I have found lots of guidance etc to read through thanks.
The car park in question is a large warehouse due to be converted into an enclosed car park.
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In such situations very little is probably needed. Often such conversions are for car parking at airports etc where parking is long term so persons at risk are very low. Roof is high so for life safety some relaxations may be appropriate for travel distances. Video surveillance may suffice for detection. Consider location, I think some places may still have some local enactments in place for petrol aggregation, that went over and above dsear. I would be pleased to be corrected if wrong on this. The biggest issue may be property protection as if high density parking they ram them in with no space at all between vehicles. I had a job like this at an airport, that was complicated by the fact that half the hangar was still used for aircraft with an aggregate value of many millions.
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I would expect to see some facilities for cross ventilation, both every day ventilation (for Part F) and for fire conditions (Part B). The floor should be impervious to petrol. Satisfactory means of escape of course, but ignore the occupancy factor suggested in ADB unless you have good reason to think that such an onerous figure might be accurate.
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Agreed Phoenix, the occupancy factors are little excessive, dealt with a MSCP with over 1200 spaces stair sizes were enormous. Came to a compromise. As long as the car park isn't attached to a Threatre etc it is unlikely everyone will be there together. Access was difficult over 18m high.
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Local enactments, Big Al??? What local enactments?
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Colin at the time of posting I was not certain and did not have time to check if the The Building (Repeal of Provisions of Local Acts) Regulations 2012 repealed those provisions within local enactments covering safety of parking places. I have now checked and can confirm that these elements were repealed. However there remain, as far as I can see, some local enactments in force relating to fire, in respect of the storage of stacks of flammable materials notably timber and plastics. Unless you can advise otherwise?
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Not a lot of call for stacking of timber in a car park, Big Al. What you meant is actually oops I forgot that the relevant provisions of local acts were repealed, possibly?
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What I meant Colin is to point out that not all local enactments were repealed in 2012 as I thought you implied in your posting.
Though off topic I thought the provisions for stacks of timber and plastic particularly relevant in view of yesterdays pallet fire in Enfield.
http://www.london24.com/news/enfield_fire_huge_blaze_sending_up_smoke_visible_all_over_london_1_4161596
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I think the stack stuff is still extant. The Building (Repeal of Provisions of Local Acts) Regulations 2012 wouldn't have repealed them as they dont relate to buildings. The Fire safety order repealed or modified a lot of local act provisions but I dont think it did for the provisions releating to stacks.
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The stacks of stuff on stacks still exists as far as I am aware.
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Interestingly, since this discussion I have now completed fire risk assessments on 2 public open sided car parks, and my reports have been criticized by an involved contractor for not recommending that a 'fire alarm and automatic suppression system is installed'. Apparently I should have also recommended that dry riser systems are retro fitted. My assessment of the risks and understanding of current guidance did not find that any of this is ne.
I am now required to meet with the Local Fire Officer to justify my report.
I find it increasingly frustrating that you can take the time to consider all current approved guidance etc, discuss the issue with other industry professionals and base your recommendations on actual risks, and still find that 'adequacy' of your assessment is called into question by parties who do not seem to have taken all factors into consideration to the same extent (it will be interesting to see what the Fire Officer makes of it!).
Do others find this to be the case? Would any of you typically recommend the retrospective installation of the equipment mentioned above in a public open sided car park?
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If the building could be built today without any of those things then why would you provide them retrospectively?
If you would need them in a new building then you need to consider if the risk associated with not having them is bearabole or can be mitigated.
No doubt the fire service would love to see your client fit a load of stuff he doesn thave to (sometimes for good reason). thats OK so long as everybody is clear that its advice and not a requirement.
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Interestingly, since this discussion I have now completed fire risk assessments on 2 public open sided car parks, and my reports have been criticized by an involved contractor for not recommending that a 'fire alarm and automatic suppression system is installed'. Apparently I should have also recommended that dry riser systems are retro fitted. My assessment of the risks and understanding of current guidance did not find that any of this is ne.
I am now required to meet with the Local Fire Officer to justify my report.
Would that contractor be the one to supply and install said alarm, detection and risers by any chance?
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If the building could be built today without any of those things then why would you provide them retrospectively?
Because Building Regs don't really take into account how a building is used; FRAs have to.
There may be a difference for example between a shopping centre car park which is only used by day visitors and is monitored by the centre CCTV and locked after hours, and a block of flats car park which is used 24 hours, not CCTV monitored, where residents may do their own car repairs involving hot work without permission, old bangers are left for months on end and may be vandalised or where arson is a risk.