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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: lyledunn on January 06, 2016, 08:52:50 AM
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One of our private members clubs has been served with an enforcement notice via the entertainment licence section of the local council. One of the issues on the action plan is that staff should be trained in the use of fire extinguishers. There is one part-time member of staff who has been in this wee club from the year dot. She is certainly capable of swinging in to action despite being over 70 but I think this is a step too far. The fire safety strategy for most of our clubs concentrates on evacuation procedures rather than fire fighting. (We represent private members clubs and have no profit motive). Many of our smaller Clubs do not have members of staff and are run on a voluntary basis.
Some time ago we arranged formal training in the use of portable extinguishers for selected employees of certain larger clubs. It turned out to be close to a farce. Many of these individuals who are employed in the club sector, I mean no disrespect, are simply not capable of technical learning and retention, nor indeed do they have the slightest interest.
I intend to challenge the notice in this regard but I would be grateful for your opinions on the general issue.
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First aid firefighting is an important part of fire safety. Putting out small fires before they become an issue is a no brainer.
I expect a real world situation would probably involve one of the club members grabing an extinguisher.
Maybe adopt a proportionate training regime - eg non live fire, a short talk or even a web based package might be better.
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I would agree with Brian about the need for first aid firefighting and a certain amount of training is always going to be needed. However I disagree about the type of training he is suggesting. Given the type of person lyle is describing I would suggest practical training rather than theoretical. I find when I do training although people do find the technical input useful, the highspot is going outside and letting off a fire extinguisher and actually putting a fire out (even just a simulated one).
It much better to fit the training to the trainee rather than fitting the trainee to the training!
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And this is all free is it?
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The fire safety strategy for most of our clubs concentrates on evacuation procedures rather than fire fighting. .............Some time ago we arranged formal training in the use of portable extinguishers for selected employees of certain larger clubs. It turned out to be close to a farce. Many of these individuals who are employed in the club sector, I mean no disrespect, are simply not capable of technical learning and retention, nor indeed do they have the slightest interest.
Hi Lyle - do you have confidence in these individuals in implementing and supervising the evacuation procedures? As far as firefighting equipment training is concerned the employer should take a look at the possible fires that might occur in your clubs that could affect life safety and scenarios in which the limited number of staff would be better to implement first aid firefighting rather than immediately initiating the evacuation rocedures. This would include very small fires such as a smoking bin (jug of water) till or computer smoking (unplug it and use a blanket or CO2) and provide a basic level of training to meet these scenarios. Not interested is not an excuse. Not capable leads to more serious concerns over the staff's rolee.
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Assuming this is in England, why are the LA poking their nose in?
Many licensing authorities appear to conveniently forget that Art 43 suspends any term that can be imposed by the LA, where it is covered by the order.
In a nutshell, it is likely that the matter is unenforceable by the LA.
Trouble is, it doesn't help when their own guidance, which is produced by the Home Office, states that they can!
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Hi Jim I think most of Lyles premises are in Northern Ireland.
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Fair enough, that explains that one. ;)
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Kurnal, I honestly do not think that the enforcing authorities have any idea about the capability of some of the people that are staffing these clubs. I would have absolutely no doubt that your jug of water would be innocently poured over a smoking till even after intensive training. Why are these people employed, we'll try ?6.50 per hour and see what calibre of person you can attract! Expecting them to fight fires, even small ones is simply beyond the pale.
What I am asking you guys is this; if the simple purpose is life-safety then in these relatively small premises with the type of of staff I have described, is it not reasonable to get out and get the fire brigade out. Leave the fire fighting to the guys who know what they are doing.
Part of my role is to ensure that general health and safety risks in these clubs are properly assessed. Trying to achieve a tolerable level of risk when considering a staff member using an extinguisher in a fire situation is close to impossible!
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Lyle I note what you say but in 2008, the Fire Industry Association carried out a survey into the usage of portable fire extinguishers, this showed that where the fires were fought using portable fire extinguishers 80% were successfully extinguished, and that in 75% of cases there was no need to call the Fire and Rescue services.
Based on these findings there is no doubt that portable fire extinguishers play a very important role in the preservation of life and property. The use of portable fire extinguishers can reduce the risk of a very small fire developing into a large one.
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Lyle I think you may be being a little unfair to these people. It's not complicated, although dragged out to a 6 hour course usually.
We use elearning which is basically a box ticker to satisfy the enforcing authority. You can't beat a live fire course which is ideal for the head chef and manager at least. But not many want to pay for this.
I always tend to spend time with the kitchen staff during an FRA and teach them how to use the wet chemical extinguisher.
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Slight aside from the Extinguisher issue (in which I'm in full agreement with Kurnal et al...)
if you're providing a service that requires people competent and capable to do certain things in the event of a fire then you have to make sure they are present at all relevant times and have that competence and capability. My understanding is that lack of affordability is absolutely no excuse in Court.
The Law assumes that if you decide to provide a service you've established that you can afford to do it safely - if you can't then you must choose not to offer the service.
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Yes Fishy but many of my clubs are small, open perhaps only once or twice a week and often staffed by volunteers or people on a very low wage. Staff turnover is often extremely high. Take one football club. Open on Wednesday and Saturday only. One part-time member of staff. If he can't turn up then the secretary has to phone around to get a replacement, someone's son or daughter who is looking for a few extra quid. Maybe 40 or 50 patrons. I imagine that if an incipient fire was discovered, someone, drunk or sober, might attempt to tackle it. Whether they tackle it or not, fire risk assessment is about saving lives. I see no point in forcing these small clubs in to providing fire extinguisher training to staff who may be there for such short periods. Framing a strategy around a simple instruction of immediate alert and evacuate is to me reasonable.
We have not had a single fatality or serious injury as a result of an accidental fire in a private members club as far as any of us can ascertain in over twenty years.
Yes to fire extinguisher training, of course I see the merits, but horses for courses!
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Training doesn't have to mean a week at the Ansul Fire School using portables and wheeled units on big scale live hydrocarbon fires.
It could just be a 10 minute toolbox talk or an e-learning programme. It's all dependant on the risk.
Some risks warrant full on practical, some don't and whilst the traditional days fire warden course with an afternoon of live Class A & B fire fighting with all types of extinguisher and a fire blanket would be good for everyone it's reality that it's unachievable.
I did my dissertation for my honours degree around the benefits of fire extinguisher training (practical and theory) and the statistical & case research, along with the local survey and questionnaire and the practical experiments strongly support some form of training in all cases and ideally hands on practical. There are business continuity & loss prevention advantages as well as life safety (hence why extinguishers once attracted insurance discounts)
Simplification of cover would help - less different types, less chance of error, there is often no need to have 6 different types in a premises - it's a shame cost & industry protectionism has stifled the adoption of water mist for example.
Some untrained users are featured on this old training video from my Youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6zltc0_njw
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Training doesn't have to mean a week at the Ansul Fire School using portables and wheeled units on big scale live hydrocarbon fires.
It could just be a 10 minute toolbox talk or an e-learning programme. It's all dependant on the risk.
I couldn't agree more. For low risk premises, extinguisher training should be very simple. I really don't know why so many people (& enforcers) get their knickers in a twist about it!
Practically operating/using an extinguisher is not rocket science - after all, everyone has used an aerosol before now - and that is effectively what they are!!
Training should aim at providing knowledge about knowing when not to use one and if a decision is made to have a go, using them safely (risk assessing/keeping escape route clear etc). Thats perhaps the area most people are not so clear on and where the risk is. So e-learning or a 'show and tell' session - perhaps with no practical discharge - can be suitable in lower risk environments. It really doesn't have to be gas training rigs and those TV set ups which are like clever electronic 'games'
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Yes Fishy but many of my clubs are small, open perhaps only once or twice a week and often staffed by volunteers or people on a very low wage. Staff turnover is often extremely high. Take one football club. Open on Wednesday and Saturday only. One part-time member of staff. If he can't turn up then the secretary has to phone around to get a replacement, someone's son or daughter who is looking for a few extra quid. Maybe 40 or 50 patrons. I imagine that if an incipient fire was discovered, someone, drunk or sober, might attempt to tackle it. Whether they tackle it or not, fire risk assessment is about saving lives. I see no point in forcing these small clubs in to providing fire extinguisher training to staff who may be there for such short periods. Framing a strategy around a simple instruction of immediate alert and evacuate is to me reasonable.
We have not had a single fatality or serious injury as a result of an accidental fire in a private members club as far as any of us can ascertain in over twenty years.
Yes to fire extinguisher training, of course I see the merits, but horses for courses!
...all of which (according to my understanding & what I've been told by lawyers over the years) would not influence a verdict in Court one jot!
Fire law gives no credence to lack of 'affordability' as a defence - it might affect the sentence, but not the verdict. As I say, the presumption is that if you can't afford to do something safely, you don't do it at all (I'm not saying that the subject of the OP describes an 'unsafe' situation by the way - it's the principle I'm talking about).
It's a bit like trying to tell the policeman that's pulled you over for driving without insurance that you couldn't afford to buy it 'cos you're on minimum wage - you can imagine what the response would be!
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Cost does come into it - its all about proportionality.
In a factory where there are things that catch fire regularly because of the processes involved (and you can't avoid that) then you spend a lot of time and money teaching your staff how to use the extinguishers.
In a little club maybe provide a few extinguishers in sensible places and get the volunteer staff to watch a video.
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Cost does come into it - its all about proportionality.
In a factory where there are things that catch fire regularly because of the processes involved (and you can't avoid that) then you spend a lot of time and money teaching your staff how to use the extinguishers.
Absolutely - cost influences what's 'reasonable' in the circumstances, but the point I was trying to make was that once you've established what's reasonably practicable, you can't use lack of affordability as an excuse not to implement it. The acceptable level of fire risk isn't influenced by the size of an RP's bank balance!
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Agreed.
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Ok chaps, affordability is an issue but not the key one. If a small club is staffed by someone who is there on a temporary basis covering a shift then it would be difficult to prove to a court that the strategy was adequate if the person injured themselves or someone else when they used an extinguisher in an incorrect way. If a fire is discovered the employers duty is to keep people safe. In small premises he can do that by giving clear instruction that on discovering a fire the staff member should commence evacuation and not attempt to tackle the fire under any circumstances. What case would there be to answer if no one is injured?
However, this is just my personal opinion. You guys are the ones who have been around the corners and I very much respect your advice. Is there a particular video that you might recommend for the circumstances I describe. Many thanks.
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Ok chaps, affordability is an issue but not the key one. If a small club is staffed by someone who is there on a temporary basis covering a shift then it would be difficult to prove to a court that the strategy was adequate if the person injured themselves or someone else when they used an extinguisher in an incorrect way. If a fire is discovered the employers duty is to keep people safe. In small premises he can do that by giving clear instruction that on discovering a fire the staff member should commence evacuation and not attempt to tackle the fire under any circumstances. What case would there be to answer if no one is injured?
However, this is just my personal opinion. You guys are the ones who have been around the corners and I very much respect your advice. Is there a particular video that you might recommend for the circumstances I describe. Many thanks.
Slight correction, if I may? Affordability isn't an issue - it shouldn't influence safety decision making (of any type) at all. Cost may, though.
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A policy of never using fire extinguishers is often used to justify not providing them and or the appropriate training. I think this is a poor approach and puts people at greater risk.
Apparently even an MP managed to use one the other day so it can't be that difficult!
Minister saves the day in Commons chip-pan blaze
"Tory MP Tobias Ellwood knows a thing or two about putting out fires. After all, he?s Minister for the Middle East. So it was just as well that the former Army officer was on hand this week when a chip-pan fire raged out of control in the Commons tea rooms.
As flames engulfed the kitchen, Ellwood, 49, dashed in with a fire extinguisher to quell the blaze, singeing his hair and eyebrows in the process.
Such heroics were clearly wasted on his Conservative colleague Alec Shelbrooke. Moments after the disaster had been averted, Shelbrooke arrived at the counter, impatiently enquiring: ?Where have my sausages got to?"
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Would the world be any worse if the building has burned to the ground?
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Its a great building and it would be a tragedy to lose it. Its the stuff that goes on in it that people have issue with.
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It's the people in the building which is the problem. Messieur Ellwood 49 (was that like 'Housewife 59?) likely remembered his military training where, he refreshed at least annually, his fire training... as they all do!!!
[singeing his hair and eyebrows in the process] - saves waxing and tweezers!!!
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Give me Holyrood every time.
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Hi Col if you are home sick I will happily buy you a one way ticket and make a small offer for your hovel in Surrey. Auld Reekie calls!
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I always like to step over the brass plate in Westminster Hall. Its the point where William Wallace was tried for going on about Scotland too much.....
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I always like to step on (the current) Stirling Bridge; you can see where Sir Bill picked off the English and sent them homewards tae think again.
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A policy of never using fire extinguishers is often used to justify not providing them and or the appropriate training. I think this is a poor approach and puts people at greater risk.
Apparently even an MP managed to use one the other day so it can't be that difficult!
Minister saves the day in Commons chip-pan blaze
"Tory MP Tobias Ellwood knows a thing or two about putting out fires. After all, he?s Minister for the Middle East. So it was just as well that the former Army officer was on hand this week when a chip-pan fire raged out of control in the Commons tea rooms.
As flames engulfed the kitchen, Ellwood, 49, dashed in with a fire extinguisher to quell the blaze, singeing his hair and eyebrows in the process.
Such heroics were clearly wasted on his Conservative colleague Alec Shelbrooke. Moments after the disaster had been averted, Shelbrooke arrived at the counter, impatiently enquiring: ?Where have my sausages got to?"
A Guy Fawkes moment ruined.
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Never mind Almost, old chap, there is always Stormont, though now the air spouted by Big Ian has gone, there are less sources of ignition.