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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Operational => Topic started by: Lee999 on September 20, 2005, 05:03:11 PM
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Pumping appliances(WT) in my Brigade now turn out with 4 riders more often than not. This is since the government directive (5 riders 75% of time on 1st aways) was withdrawn.
In my view, this is a worry.
Is a crew of 4 enough to deal with any job safely, particually a going structural fire or an RTA on a busy roadway?
Do we need to lose somebody before they look at the situation?
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The key is Risk Assessment- if it isn't safe- Make up until you have sufficient personnel to make it safe.
The problems will be in the time between the RA deciding you need another pump and the oncoming crews arriving as you may be morally pressurised into doing something, knowing that procedure-wise, you have inadequate personnel to do it!
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One of my old CFO's used to often say that 5 is not enough for a RTA. And he was right!
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I heard or a scenario of a crew of 4 turned up to an RTC with 2 person trapped, 1 critical.
the covering officer arrived at the scene and the Jo from the applince said' thank god your here, we 've only got 4 and the next pump will be another 10 minis'.
The covering officer then proceeded to take out a clip board and assess the crew!!!
Now I know you here some stories on here, but this is true.
Needles to say the covering officer's name is mud as the casualty later died from their injuries. Not to say that another bod would of saved their life, but it may of released them that bit quicker for the county ambulance to do their majic!!
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What about the guy or gal that turns up on the flash motorbike there Psmith? Useful or not?
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will look good, but not sure how they will be used?
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we allow retained stations to ride with 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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They only allow 3 riders on our retained pumps in very exceptional circumstances and it certainly wouldn't be the only pump turning out!.
We have 2 pumps for an RTC if theres only 4 riders now and if it involves an L/HGV this is the PDA + Rescue Tender.
It is also quite common for the OIC to make pumps 2 for crew safety on an RTC and again is the PDA on major roads (i.e. Dual carrigeway or Motorway).
I see the point being made but I have to say theres usually about 8 or 9 fighting to get on my RT pump (never a good idea to sit by the door you might get shoved out when someone gets in the otherside!)
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The key is Risk Assessment- if it isn't safe- Make up until you have sufficient personnel to make it safe.
The problems will be in the time between the RA deciding you need another pump and the oncoming crews arriving as you may be morally pressurised into doing something, knowing that procedure-wise, you have inadequate personnel to do it!
i think its too easy to just say "make up for more appliances", riding with four in a rural brigade where a second or third attendance may take an age to arrive is bad policy in my view . a crew of 4 cannot handle any real incident effectively where a casualty is involved. 4 is far too few for a RTC with casualties on any roadway and certainly to few for a premise fire that requires much effort.
i can understand the logic to some degree in a urban/city brigade where a second pump can be counted on in just a couple of minutes but not in rural areas.
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http://www.firetactics.com/FIRE-COVER-REVIEW.htm This is an area I have been watching closely. Make no mistake the FBU are looking at this seriously. The fact is that crewing arrangments are the same in some areas for a fire in a ground floor flat as opposed to a 17th floor high-rise. We are becoming archaic in our firefighting and rescue approaches in the UK and firefighter lives will almost certainly be lost somewhere because of this.
You cannot rely on RA .... moral decisions will be made and firefighters lives will be placed at risk. The careers of those making those decisions will also be at risk.
This is all very worrying indeed.
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I share your concerns PaulG.
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Did ridership have a part to play in the tragic Fire in Stevenage earlier this year?
Did the 2 pumps turn out with 4+4?
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Buffalosid
I didn't mean to make this sound trivial and it is just a statement of fact- I totally agree with your points but I was trying to emphasise the pressures that will be put on the OIC, and even more so in a rural area.
It is putting personnel in a position like this that forces them to go against their laid down procedures in certain circumstances- sometimes with disastrous consequences!
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Buffalosid
I didn't mean to make this sound trivial and it is just a statement of fact- I totally agree with your points but I was trying to emphasise the pressures that will be put on the OIC, and even more so in a rural area.
It is putting personnel in a position like this that forces them to go against their laid down procedures in certain circumstances- sometimes with disastrous consequences!
i hear ya
wavelengths syncronised fella lol
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keep the discussions going, its going somewhere .........
dave bev
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When I worked in Devon, retained stations booked out with a crew of 3 all the time during daytime hours. The stations that did co-responding booked out with 3 and no additional pump was ever mobilised. Ok for a medical job but what happened if they got proceeded to a fire persons reported or an RTA? Minimum riders on a WT pump was always 4.
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As I say they never let a pump go with only 3, if they do they always 'cover' it with another even if it's only backing up another appliance.
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so what does happen when a crew arrive without enough firefighters to make an intervention safely? is it correct that an employer should allow this to happen, knowing as they do that a firefighter (who are people) will do the same as an unequiped member of the public, and try to do something? potentially risking their lives (i'll wait for that part of the debate to be raised, probably in isolation of the rest of the thread!)
bvpi 145 used to record such information.
whatever happened to leon trotsky, he got an ice pick ............ NO MORE HERO'S ANYMORE
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So, do we all agree that we need 5 to turn out?
How can we make this happen, before we lose people?
Any info on the tragic Stevenage fire would be of interest.
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So, do we all agree that we need 5 to turn out?
How can we make this happen, before we lose people?
Any info on the tragic Stevenage fire would be of interest.
What are our objectives? Is it safe to attempt a rescue without a hoseline on the fire? Or do we take the fire first and leave the rescue? How many firefighters do we need on scene to achieve both options if the fire at ground floor level and the occupants are somewhere above? How many firefighters do we need (minimum) to initiate a primary attack and search on a working flat fire on the 17th floor? How many firefighters (minimum) should be in that initial crew that responds to the fire floor?
These are all routine situations that should be accounted for in your documented working practices .... I bet they aren't!
Each brigade/station/watch/officer/crew across the UK will approach these scenarios differently! There are optimum levels involved here to undertake the tasks but who will agree on them!
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lee, not so simple. its the numbers at the incident and the time they arrive, NOT the numbers who turn out. of course there will be a 'time lag' if they are mobilised from different locations - perhaps the phrase 'speed and weight of attack' actually did mean something, even all these years ago!
the report of stevenage may have been completed already!!
paulg - optimum levels - yes there are. they were contained within the 'pathfinder reviews' and are being resurrected by the FBU in its CAST process/principles (Critical Attendance STandard) and the point you make re 'documented working practices' is in my opinion a valid one, however stating one thing and allowing something totally different to happen is the real issue - brigades turn a blind eye to unsafe and dangerous practices. they should be accountable!!
dave bev
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So, do we all agree that we need 5 to turn out?
How can we make this happen, before we lose people?
Any info on the tragic Stevenage fire would be of interest.
What are our objectives? Is it safe to attempt a rescue without a hoseline on the fire? Or do we take the fire first and leave the rescue? How many firefighters do we need on scene to achieve both options if the fire at ground floor level and the occupants are somewhere above? How many firefighters do we need (minimum) to initiate a primary attack and search on a working flat fire on the 17th floor? How many firefighters (minimum) should be in that initial crew that responds to the fire floor?
These are all routine situations that should be accounted for in your documented working practices .... I bet they aren't!
Each brigade/station/watch/officer/crew across the UK will approach these scenarios differently! There are optimum levels involved here to undertake the tasks but who will agree on them!
I would say it can be safe to perform a "SNATCH" rescue without water in some circumstances and im sure most of us have. it merely depends on the location and intensity of the fire vs location/number of casualties.
but yeah normal procedures with only one BA team and a unknown location for casualties would be to fight the fire first therfore eliminating the risk to yourselves.
how many firefighters needed? well doesnt that depend on the structure too?
flat fire on the 17th floor......well i think a 3 pump turn-out minimum is needed as far as BA for firefighting and search well 2 teams of 2 is sufficient for what are reasonably small flats.
my own station has 3 wholetime pumps .the 1st pump deals with water ie dry riser and hydrant, the 2nd and 3rd take care of the high rise kit -hose branch etc and wear BA
the only info i have on the stevenage incident comes down the grapeline so i cannot vouch for its accuracy but ill share it anyway but please dont take it as fact.
2 pump attendence sub o 5 years in , lff 3 years in . the two firefighters 4 yrs and 2 yrs. perhaps the crews were lacking in experience ?????i have also heard that no hot fire training had been given in hertfordshire for several years after initial training.
confirmed persons reported, flames roaring out the window.
the two BA enetered with no water , still had theyre tallies on and took the lift straight to the floor of the fire. ( bridgehead???)
they proceded down the coridor and found a casualty who was carried to safety)they then made entry to the _flat_ after hearing calls/coughing a internal door was then opened. .
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Minimum riders on a pump, WT or Ret should be 5. However with brigades trying to use IRMP to cut jobs and close stations and nothing realisticly being done about retained recruitment & retention in most brigades as well as more brigades switch crewing specials such as TLs;I don't know how this can be achived on a regular basis? I know that many brigades are short on their WT establishment but are unable to recruit more Ffs due to budget shortfalls.
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Dave B
Could you outline what the FBU are proposing, and a time scale for which results can be expected? (please)
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lee,
http://www.fbu.org.uk/workplace/irmp/irmpdoc/index.php
there are several cast planning sceanrios being developed for different types of incidents - the national document may help you understand the propsals
dave bev
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The Stevenage reportS are being collated still. There is a BRE computer simulation of the flat fire included. I am legally prevented from commenting on what occurred but you are best not advised to listen too closely to the 'grapevine' versions!
3 pumps on an initial high-rise attendance is great if you have it! Most brigades operate with two I believe, which is one over the national requirement.
FBU proposals for residential tower blocks is a minimum of 13 firefighters. However, an effective tactical deployment of those firefighters demands a a carefully thought out and documented SOP.
Sid - interior SNATCH rescues are a last resort and should be discouraged in all but the most desperate situations where a hoseline is not operating on the fire.