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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: PhilB on September 20, 2005, 05:18:09 PM
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I have just seen the draft guide for Res Care and its got some scarey bits!!!! Accomodation stairs are apparently ok, they are quite rightly not mentioned in HTM84 or even in the Green Guide for a very good reason. Lilac guide recommended enclosing accomodation stairs at upper levels, again for good reason.
The staircase configurations appear to be taken from the blue guide. So we can have a single stair buiding of three floors with doors opening from bedrooms and hazard rooms directly into staircase. Multi stair building need lobbies, please explain that one to me somebody!!
Travel distance is based on time, evac time is taken as 2.5 mins which is 150 seconds. In an attempt to show they know about fire safety, they say start up time is 2/3rds so time available is 50 seconds. They clearly dont know the origins of the 2/3rd start up time.
No doubt someone will come back and tell me they have consulted widely on this guide. Who the hell with I wonder. Still why am I worrying we dont lose many people in fires in res care homes do we?????!!!!!!
Well done everybody, the future is very scarey!
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Hi can you tell me where you can view this document?
Is it part of the BRE guides for RRO? (Healthcare)
Thanks
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Info' on where to link in with this would be good.
James
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sorry cant help, I obtained a copy this week from a colleague, presumably this document is out for consultation but where I know not!
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To stakeholders. Its just a certain training establishment just LOVE leaked copies of things.
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Once again you are wrong Mr Todd! Maybe rather than making false accusations it may be more useful to comment on content of draft guidance.
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I too have seen this document, and like Phil, I'm scared too! This is yet another example of political vandalism perpetrated by people who think they know better. The anomalies in this draft guide are frightening. It is year zero for the Fire Service. History is being rewritten. Many of the accepted benchmark standards are being gradually dumbed down; by people who are pursuing an agenda based on political dogma - their attack on the Fire Service is actually an attack on everyone. If these standards are accepted, then I would suggest that there is the potential for MORE deaths, injuries & losses by fire, not less. It's gambling with people's lives. Also - who has been consulted about these guides? Who are the 'stakeholders' who have been consulted? It doesn't matter really - even if the consultation process was wide enough - do you think that they would listen? Answers on a postcard please!
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Phillip, Only stakeholders are able to comment.
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Colin, I appreciate that you like to have the last word in these forums, but perhaps those last words could be used to add something worthwile to the debate. Have you seen the proposed guidance and if you have what do you think?
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I think its the same as all the guides. Its trying to do several jobs at once and it cant be done.
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I attended a multi fatal fire is a residential home last year.(arson, by employee)
In my experience, procedure needs to be looked at ASAP.
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Its always down to procedures. We worry about the physical fire precautions to a disproportionate extent
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Yea tell that one to the relatives of the Rose Park disaster!
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No need , Phillip, no need. A Scottish Sheriff (so much brighter than English magistrates dont you know) will, I bet, tell these poor people exactly what I have just told you. Then you can repeat it at your wee College. But you read it here first.
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Be very careful Colin talking about this. We as professionals have a duty on here not to discuss issues before legalities take place. Knowing what i know about this incident please wait till the fatal accident or the judicial hearing.
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I find it amazing that some people believe physical fire precautions are not vital in these types of premises. I was hoping for some constructive debate on content of new guildance. If anyone can provide that please join the debate and give Mr Todd a day off!
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Marty, fair comment, but we have been waiting an awful long time for the enquiry. The comment was a general one on fire safety, which Phil has chosen to misinterpret. The point is that, in general, we have metaphorically worried about the intumescent strips without worrying enough about what actually happens when there is a fire. Marty, if you feel that the above comment relates to somehting that should be sub judice let me know and I will edit it out.
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So back to original point of debate. Does anyone who has seen the guide think it is ok?
Why are accommodation stairs considered acceptable. Why can single stair buildings have hazard rooms opening into stairway but multi-stair buildings need lobbys?
Guide mentions protected areas, similar to Green Guide but travel distance is not measured to them!
Self-closing devices not required on bedroom doors, should we not be encouraging free swing devices?
Who was consulted during the production of this guide. Without referring to any specific cases we all know that there are ongoing problems in these premises. I agree Collllin that management procedures are extremely important but so too is passive fire protection as evac times will be considerable.
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the guide is definately not ok. the BRE have tried hard and under pressure have come up with something that tries to be prescriptive and risk appropriate and falls down between both. its difficult enough for some fire safety proffesionals to understand stairs this will confuse all. bring back post war building studies, at least it displayed rationale behind judgements.
the comment stage should be more accessible for all not just a select few, if documents like this hit the shelf we are in trouble as we the FRS will be asked to provide advice.
my only saving grace is the scottish building control are drafting a like document for north of the border.
england and wales please take note.
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So when do those responsible for managing care homes get an opportunity to be consulted?
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Ken: they have/are being consulted now.
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Party, the guides will not overrule scottish building regs/SHTM 84, which (rightly) requires the closers on the bedroom doors. Pity all those who are so vociferous about these guides had never chirped up about all the existing guidance in E&W, which, for years, has been telling people (wrongly in my opinion) that bedroom doors in res care do not need to be s/c.
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Ian, I do work for an organisation that owns and manages residential and nursing care but have not yet seen the consultation document. Do you know where it can be obtained?
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Colllin
Certain training establishments have for years pointed out the deficiencies with current guidance to delegates, HMFSI etc. There has been no need to 'chirp up' too much as HMFSI were well aware of deficiencies and said new guidance was imminent.... 3 years ago!!!
E&W have never had HTM84 but the IBC guide based on HTM84(Northern Ireland) has also been promoted by certain training establishments.
SHTM84 is in my opinion correct in requiring swing free devices on bedroom doors. The requirement for SCs is discussed at great length by some people who you claim are neither “very bright or forward thinking.”
The content of the new guide is in my opinion far more confusing than the draft green guide (if that’s possible!!) and will lead to lower fire safety standards than those achieved by using the draft green guide.
The end result is more people will die unnecessarily in these places.
It is obvious that the publishers do not understand the problems and clearly have not consulted with the right people.
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Colin,
SHTM 84 may become absorbed into the new care home guidence. Shtm is owned by NHS and for NHS homes, not many in scotland. the new guide will utilise the technical handbook and improve the requirements of SHTM by giving owners a trade off benefit analysis for sprinks.
SHTM may be used as a management tool for staffing and training etc
policy is still to be finalised by the fire division but looks promising for a bright future.
depending on the status given by ODPM on the new guides this guide could be used in enland and wales as an alternative, my advice it should be. or another guide developed by FSA, BRE etc.
certain guides in england did not help the cause for sc doors but we can only move forward.
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Is there a web link to the guide yet?
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Should all doors to bedrooms be FR and self-closing? Current guidance is confusing on this point.
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Depends which guide you read Ian. Green guide can be interpreted as not even requiring fire doors and no SCs. Northern Ireland HTM84 no Scs. Scottish HTM84 free swing Scs.
The proposed new guidance no Scs unbless dead end condition, then free swing Scs.
Not at all confussing and surely there will be no inconsistency of enforcement.
And why does the new guide not consider sprinklers worthy of note?
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PhilB: new guide = no FR on corridors - except dead ends. What is your view on this?
I know all that you have stated above (you have missed some others out too) - but I'm still confused! And I'm sure anyone else must be more so.
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I believe new guide recommends FR to all bedrooms, dead end or not.
Similar to HTM84 but will have to check. Someone's borrowed my copy as they seem hard to find!!
It is the Scs that are not included unless deadend condition. I'm in two minds regarding Scs. We know they will wedge doors open for a variety of good reasons. The best option must be free swing devices but they are expensive and I have seen those wedged open too!!
With excellent management procedures where all staff know and adhere to policy of closing doors as part of emergency plan it may work...but it scares me!! Sprinklers has to be the way forward in my opinion.
Not wishing to mention any particular cases but if a number of children had been killed in a childrens home rather than old people in Res Care homes, I suspect our lords and masters would have reacted a tad quicker than they are at present.
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As to bedroom doors onto corridors forming part of an escape route, I feel
that these should be 30min - particularly in view of the nature of occupants
and the need for many to be assisted to escape. Time to achieve evacuation
to a safe place is most important within the care sector and smokers may be
less able to prevent an associated fire or respond in its event. Staffing
levels may well be such that a staff member may be required to assist a
number of individual residents in the event of fire - all requiring
considerable time.
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PhilB: get yourself an up to date copy. I can assure you that, at the moment, only dead-end conditions are to be FR and sc! I've been aware for some time that there are differences in the myriad of codes - but what is correct?
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Thanks Ian. I cannot see the reasoning behind that. I would like to see all bedrooms enclosed in FR with SCs. As to what is correct......there are at present many guides that the responsible person, approved inspectors etc. can use ......and the latest effort appears to be the weakest of all.
Its full of wierd ideas.......what about the theory that 2.5 mins is reasonable escape time..i.e. 150 secs. Two thirds is start up time so they then calculate how far the occupants can travel in 50 secs to determine travel distance!!!
Has the world gone completely mad!!! Who has been consulted on this guidance????
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Stakeholders, Phillip, stakeholders.
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Thanks Collllin!
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Always a pleasure to help the man fae Moreton, Phillip.
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I have been a lone voice criticising the escape time here.
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Phil
The 50secs to move from a compartment was originally suggested, and supported by empirical evidence, by Don Christain, who I believe was a respected HMI...but what do they know!
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Is that the same Don Christian who wrote a publication for BSI on fire safety in res care and said that the bedroom doors did not need to be s/c?
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Probably! Not if you can get them out in 50 secs!
Sprinklers, S/c's and L1 AFD...they should get the lot and Fire Services should bin the CFOA policy on not turning out to these if they have too many uwfs
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The start up time theory of 2/3 total evac time was based on research carried out in entirely different circumstances.
What do you think start up time will be for a one legged arthritic confussed 95 year old who is heavily sedated????? Don't think they can travel very far in 50 minutes either, let alone seconds!!!!
And what about staffing levels??????
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I note that the N Ireland Guidance refers to staffing levels. That was brave of them!
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No, Ian, it was just sensible not brave. Now you have lost me Sophie. Where do you stand on all this?
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I suggest 'both' Colin. You sure wont see that in this guidance.