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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: Peter Cornhill on September 21, 2005, 10:26:39 AM
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Can anyone offer me some further information about the above. More specifically, some of the history behind why this may be deemed as unacceptable (is there case history?).
Apart from the information in Approved document B and BS 5588: Part 11: 1997 (9.2.2), I can not find any other guidance.
From a risk assessment point of view, I do not feel comfortable with a photcopier in a single staircase situation even if it has an MCB with a detector above and good waste management! However, we are entering (or do I mean at last marketing) the new non-prescriptive RA era.
Can someone perhaps enlighten/eduacte me?
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i dont no about enlighten but the message tells me that the photocopiers are unacceptable because of the 1801 act of cheif. carline who demanded it a unacceptable act. to attire more information on this topic call me on 07910290410 ask for carl milson
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1801 & photocopiers?? Strange history.
As well as the obvious risk in the past the fire certificate requirements for maintaining means of escape usually ruled them out
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I assume the photocopier is in the stairway enclosure.
If their is only one stair we should do our best to avoid any potential fire risk. There was a time when photocopiers were regarded as a high risk, I don't think that is still valid anymore but I still wouldnt want one in the enclosures of the only way out of a building.
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If we are talking about risk assessment then everything is relative. One means of escape increases the risk without anything on it, with a photocopier the risk is increased.
Also the photocopier is acting as an obstacle and should therefore be removed as this is a fire exit route.
Although a photocopier is fairly safe (I've never known one to go on fire and I used to maintain them many years ago) they do use heat to fuse the toner to the paper and therfore are a potential risk particularly if there was a paper jam.
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In very simple terms, any electrical equipment is a fire risk.
All fire exit routes must be kept sterile. Even if we assume the photocopier is "safe" which is isn't, you will also get the piles of paper and other stationary stored next to the machine.
The message is keep all escape routes sterile!!
Simon
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I'm not sure I'd lose any sleep over this - certainly if the building is just 2 storey.
I would also advise you take other things into account such as the building being generally well managed and tidy - or otherwise.
Also, if the photocopier looks at the end of its days (maybe like all other electrical equipment as these things tend to follow) or brand new and in good order, is another factor; as is the people using the building.
The decision is yours!
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Blimey Ian!
What do you do when youre doing an FRA, line up the staff and check if they have clean shoes?
However well managed the building is (or how nice the staff look) something electrical may still catch fire and on a single stair theres no other way out.
I suppose if the building is small enough (anybody affected can see the offending machine) I might just about be able to live with this.
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I would lose sleep over this, and I dont ever wear clean shoes.
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Brian, if that's all that you can find wrong in a building - keep calm. but you should get the sleeping pills ready for doing FRAs of schools and hospitals!
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I suppose this highlights one of the drawbacks of the brave new world of Risk assessment.
What is an acceptable level of risk? Its entirely subjective and even experienced fire safety wallahs disagree on the simplest of questions.
Saying that we used to disagree under the old system ?!
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Brian, I am worried. I find your postings more and more full of common sense things that I say myself. Am I in danger of becoming a civil servant???? You have hit the nail dead centre with the above posting. A major pill that we all have to swallow is that if you want 100% consistency it is easy-just go for 0% flexibility. If you want 100% flexibility then you have 0% consistency. Your lords and masters (some days a week) are committed to lack of prescription and flexibility, so we need to accept that there will be a shortage of consistency, as a result of subjectivity. In short there will be no right or wrong answers any more. This is a concept that, happily, a lot of I/Os now understand and accept. The message is to justify the findings of the FRA in the documented significant findings.
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the dangers of prescription are the charges you pay the chemist. sometimes you can get the same medicines over the counter at a cheaper price than the prescription charges. put a bit more simpler, you dont always get what you think you are getting. the trick is to ask the right questions, make sure the answers actually relate to the questions that need answering and then make a decision, remembering you may have to swallow it at the end of the day!
even if it is a bitter pill!
edit added - ok, i know its a convoluted answer so perhaps this may help - the doctor tells you need to take something/do something to deal with an issue. the doctor writes a prescription out detailing exactly what you need to do, however when you go to the chemist they tell you there is a 'cheaper' way of achieving the end result - who is wrong? the doctor for giving you a prescritpion in a detailed solution, the chemist for advising you of a different solution achievable at a lower cost or you for not seeking an alternative medicine?
is that better?
dave bev
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Brian, that's why I posted my original reply! I guessed it would draw some response, however, FRA is always going to generate differing opinions. The question is: how will the brave new world respond to all this??
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Ian, With sympathy and understanding and no cases in the Court of Appeal over matters on which the fire authority could never win. Brave new world out there.
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We shall see. At least there's till fun to be had!
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is it a marble staircase?
dave bev
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Nah, you will never have as much fun as you had at the ratepayers expense. Your heady days at the Court of Appeal are sadly no more Ian. They are merely a reminisence akin to Davey has when he remembers the times when he had a full head of hair, the Unions were all powerful, the mere name of The Rack would have instilled fear in the Government, and the most exciting thing was whether your date was wearing these new fangled tights inside her knickers or outside. Nowadays,it is all this touchy feely business of fire officers being nice to the punter, not threatening section 10s and court actions and dare I say it actually thinking of the damn nuisance of an employer as something akin to a customer. Eh its not what we joined up for is it.
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Ouch! This is in danger of becoming a totally different topic.
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OK, Ian. One should not put a phtocopier in a single staircase. Hows that?
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Agreed
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I note the word 'should' - therefore - agreed!
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Glad we got that sorted then. Next question.
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Ok, What about the air handling unit hanging from the ceiling in the stairwell?
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We will let you keep that Brian if you really want to.
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ok, i'll ask one colin, can you put a photocopier in a single staircase property, or is that a duplicate(r) question?
dave bev
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Yes you can. All you do is get two burly men to carry it up the stairs or take the lift. But you shouldnt. Does this help?
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Dr Fireman, Mr Lee, Neil M, Doug and Chief Carline,
I have read nonsensical and rude posts from each of you. Name calling and pointless posts will not be tolerated on this forum.
This forum exists for those in the industry to exchange information, discuss ideas and engage in discussion about fire related issues.
I have served you all with a temporary ban until November. If you want to use the site for its' proper purpose after this time feel free to do so, if you again use this forum for name calling, I won't hesitate to ban you permanently and refer your offensive posts to your university, employer or mail provider (I'm quite sure each of them has an anti-abuse policy.) Don't think you are anonymous when you are on this website.
Best Regards,
Chris.
Forum Admin.
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What fun...
Photocopier in a single protected staircase, even if it is only ground and first, you must be having a larrf..
SHIFT THE PHOTOCOPIER
Options I would explore would be
1. Shift copier into risk room, behind staircase protection, ok, obvious!
2. Build FR structure for p/copier, AFD, SC/A doors..also pretty obvious!!
3. Surround p/copier in firetrace, provide AFD, still would not deal with paper store, bins etc.
4,. Misting system and AFD,
The problem with 3 & 4 is that escape may not be possible until the systems have activated and controlled the fire!!...but in these enlightend times I may just go along with that..who knows..
...NO PHOTOCOPIER
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The problem is Brian, it never ends with just the photocopier. You will end up with paper stocks and waste bins for scrap copies.
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Yeah... I know, then the desk, and the receptionist...maybe a jackbooted NO from the fire officer would be the functional solution!
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colin re 'can you' question i posed.
your answer, although factual may not be technically and politically correct.
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Oh I think it is technically correct Davey. I will leave the politics to you. I am apolitical.
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How about the issue of receptions in single staircase buildings (esp on the G floor)?
I accept it is dependant on a number of variables and has been accepted in fire certs (with restrictions) in the past when reception consisted of a desk, a bakelite phone and a diary. The only combustible item being the can of hairspray in receptionist's handbag.
But a modern reception area may well have two PCs, and air con unit and a fair amount of paperwork.
I accept that the type of AFD should be considered as a control measure and that for most buildings, receptions are rarely left unmanned, but where should one draw the line as the issue is surely preventing smoke in the 1st place, rather than informing occupiers of the presence of smoke in the stairwell?
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Since this cannot be covered in a simple guide it is a fire engineering question. Each case must be taken on its merits. It is ok if the occupants can safely escape from the building before any potential fire has produced enough smoke and or heat to stop them. It will be up to the responsible person to provide evidence that this is the case.
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You are right, Messey. AFD is not the answer to everything, although people tend to treat it as such without thinking through the actual scenarios.