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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: hmcb1976 on December 13, 2016, 10:30:13 PM

Title: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: hmcb1976 on December 13, 2016, 10:30:13 PM

Hi all,

looking some advice from all you knowledgeable folk  ::)

Care Home with a designated smoking room for residents. Fitted with a Photo Electric Detector, when there are 4-5 smokers in the room, fire alarm activates. This has resulted in a number of false alarms. ventilation system has been upgraded, no combustible materials in the room except clothing worn by the smokers.

Looking for people's opinion on what the best form of fire detection is?  I have recommended a fixed temp 57 Deg C heat detector, this has been refused by the registration body on the grounds that if somebody sets their clothing / hair on fire a heat detector will not activate quickly enough to prevent injury to the smoker. Is it not widely accepted that no detector will pick up this sort of fire rapidly enough to prevent injury / burns to the smoker??

 The inspector is insisting on a smoke detector being fitted to the room, would you good folk recommend an ionisation smoke detector?

Your thoughts would be warmly welcomed as I'm fighting a losing battle!!

Many thanks,

Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 13, 2016, 11:50:42 PM
There can be no evidence that any smoke detector will be so selective to identify that it is a persons clothing that is smouldering rather than cigarettes? BS 5839 generally seeks to raise an alarm for the protection of persons outside the room of origin.

If a person drops their cigarette onto their clothing it will smoulder and slowly burn through the clothes causing nasty skin burns long before producing enough smoke to operate a detector in any case. I saw this a couple of years ago when an old gentleman put his lit pipe in his pocket setting fire first to the inside of his pocket and his underwear causing a serious saucer size burn.

The best answer must surely be supervision for the most likely cause of injury and fire is whilst service users are using their lighters? Another case that led to a prosecution arose when an old gentleman could not pull open a packet of glacier mints and in frustration used his lighter to try and burn off the top of the packet burning his hands badly. In all respects he had been  deemed to be responsible to manage his own smoking materials prior to this incident.

I think the authorities are barking up the wrong tree but appreciate your dilemma. IMO they are trying to push their problem onto your shoulders. I don't think a smoke detector exists with the sensitivity to detect smouldering clothing but with the selectivity not to alarm if 4 or 5 people are smoking. Ventilation may stop the unwanted alarms but will it help with the smouldering clothing? No of course it will greatly delay any alarms arising from this.

Some people will suggest multi sensors as a solution - they may be successful in reducing alarms but not help in preventing injury from a clothing fire. Supervision is the answer.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: AnthonyB on December 13, 2016, 11:58:30 PM
Supervision may be more appropriate as whilst smoke detectors are quick if someone's clothing is fully alight then by the time the head activates, someone checks the fire panel and realises it's the smoking lounge head that has activated (if addressable, otherwise it's search the zone time) and staff are sent it will be far far too late....

I'd ask what it's got to do with the CQC anyway, they don't enforce the Fire Safety Order....... Surely they should be partnership working with the FRS if they are concerned.

In a home I've dealt with that is in special measures with the CQC they limited their fire stuff to training and procedures and let the FRS deal in more depth with technical issues.

If you wanted to be devious (not that I would officially recommend it of course) you could fit a multi-sensor but have it programmed to heat only....
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: wee brian on December 14, 2016, 09:20:02 AM
No smoke detector (even the ones he has now) will prevent old geezers burning themselves - that's a job for the staff.

I'd look at a multi sensor to reduce the unwanted alarms.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: hmcb1976 on December 14, 2016, 12:44:37 PM

Hi all,

Many thanks for all your responses, all very helpful and basically the same as I had suggested.

The RQIA are a 'funny' bunch!!  Like to get a say in everything!!.


Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: Fire Monkey on December 14, 2016, 04:53:52 PM
The type of detection depends on your goals - building protection is one thing - early warning another.

I would point out to the building owner/manager of their duty of care - are they showing the required responsibility by allowing certain people to smoke un-supervised (if in deed that is the case).

What about 2nd hand smoke in relation to carers?

Are you aware that some residents may have skin conditions that mean they are covered head to toe in a flammable cream. This has caused death.

I would presume the room doors is fire rated (FD30S) and has a closing device and the room is a fire rated compartment?

Would recommend a large fire blanket in the room.

Could the room be zoned and fitted with a heat and super low sensitivity smoke detector located on the wall?

Ensure there are sufficient ash trays and they are cleaned /emptied on a regular basis.

Oxygen users should not use the smoking room.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Hills-2015-0317.pdf
https://www.leedssouthandeastccg.nhs.uk/content/uploads/2016/10/Emollients-Smoking.pdf
http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/warning-after-five-elderly-people-die-in-house-fires-in-two-weeks-1-7382931
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 14, 2016, 05:30:44 PM
Is it reasonable to use staff who are smokers in their own right in respect of secondary smoking? Just askin!

Video monitoring, indeed video smoke detection may offer options for supervision?

Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: colin todd on December 14, 2016, 09:20:51 PM
Tony, the gentleman said RQIA not CQC, so it is not the FSO that applies. And the RQIA do have fire safety within their scope so it has everything to do with them.

An ICSD would be better than an optical in relation to smoking, but a detector in the room may not save the life of a frail person who has set their clothing alight.  Multi sensors are not the answer to everything.  it would depends what manufacture of system is installed. Some company's multi sensors would not do much better against smoking than a conventional detector.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: AnthonyB on December 14, 2016, 09:54:54 PM
Doesn't say anything other than registration body in the OP, my crystal ball is in for repair....

Perhaps posters should make clear where they are situated in order to use the right legislation and identify the AHJ
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: Fishy on December 15, 2016, 09:26:50 AM
Perhaps posters should make clear where they are situated in order to use the right legislation and identify the AHJ

Seconded... there have been numerous occasions where topics have a number of posts before it becomes clear that the wrong country was being discussed!
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: colin todd on December 15, 2016, 07:41:14 PM
That's why people should not rely on advice from random strangers down the pub.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 15, 2016, 07:47:41 PM
Doesn't say anything other than registration body in the OP, my crystal ball is in for repair....

Perhaps posters should make clear where they are situated in order to use the right legislation and identify the AHJ
NI. Do you identify where you are before you you speak AB? You really should or you can confuse the issue. And what do you mean by "right" legislation? Is legislation wrong other than where you come from? And if you don't know what RQIA is you clearly aren't reading enough.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 15, 2016, 07:48:47 PM
Perhaps posters should make clear where they are situated in order to use the right legislation and identify the AHJ

Seconded... there have been numerous occasions where topics have a number of posts before it becomes clear that the wrong country was being discussed!
NI. You too Fishy.
And pray tell where is the "wrong" country?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 15, 2016, 09:04:48 PM
And I was accused of being grumpy!

Posting history aside I judged this query to be pretty universal as I wager clothing ignites and burns the same irrespective of the geography.

And the CQC in England regularly overstep their mark and are rarely corrected in this by the AHJ!
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: hmcb1976 on December 15, 2016, 09:20:27 PM
Hi all,

I think I should clarify a few points to clear up any confusion!!

I am based in Northern Ireland
Registration body is RQIA who basically fulfil the same role as CQC.
Working to the Fire Safety Regulations (NI) 2010 and NIFRS Order (NI) 2006.

I am not a gentleman, lady at her work 😀

With regards to the supervision that is our key strategy. Very detailed risk assessments are completed and assess the physical and cognitive ability of all the smokers. Degree of supervision can vary from residents holding their own smoking materials to residents who have their cigarettes held for them.

The smoking room is sterile, all furniture is fire retardant, tiled floor, metal ashtrays etc.
There is also a call bell in the room.
Oxygen users are not permitted in the room.
Fire blanket is in the room
I wrongly assumed that posters would connect RQIA with Northern Ireland so apologies about that.

Once again many thanks for all your responses and suggestions.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 15, 2016, 10:27:37 PM
It sounds to me that you are meeting all reasonable needs and that  smoke detection will not  provide any significant further benefit. As previously stated.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 16, 2016, 06:31:03 AM
And I was accused of being grumpy!

Posting history aside I judged this query to be pretty universal as I wager clothing ignites and burns the same irrespective of the geography.

And the CQC in England regularly overstep their mark and are rarely corrected in this by the AHJ!
NI. Of course it's universal K wherever it is. By the way - where are you from?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 16, 2016, 06:38:27 AM
NI. And as the OP says RQIA can be a strange lot. They make decisions on fire safety and I don't believe any of them are Registered as it requires anyone else involved in FS to be.

One thing I know they were involved in was a requirement in a new Dementia Unit that the service users had to be able to lock themselves in their rooms without making sure that arrangements  were in place to ensure staff could get them out.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: David Rooney on December 16, 2016, 12:05:39 PM
Quickest response but to avoid false alarms may be from a point flame detector - depends on the manufacture of the system.

Only issue would be the lighting of the cigarettes - you wouldn't want to use a lighter but then I wouldn't have thought the clients are allowed to wander around with lighters in there pockets ... You would need "hot element" lighters like a car lighter.

Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: AnthonyB on December 18, 2016, 07:58:06 PM

I wrongly assumed that posters would connect RQIA with Northern Ireland so apologies about that.

If you had actually mentioned the RQIA in the original post we would. 'Registration Body' on it's own could be anywhere, some posters seem to have crystal balls!

That's where the confusion came from!
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: AnthonyB on December 18, 2016, 08:01:27 PM
Doesn't say anything other than registration body in the OP, my crystal ball is in for repair....

Perhaps posters should make clear where they are situated in order to use the right legislation and identify the AHJ
NI. Do you identify where you are before you you speak AB? You really should or you can confuse the issue. And what do you mean by "right" legislation? Is legislation wrong other than where you come from? And if you don't know what RQIA is you clearly aren't reading enough.

Pedant. By the right legislation it if course means the legislation appropriate to the country where the premises are. No point applying the 2013 California Fire Code if talking about a building in Bolton for (an extreme) example...

And I know who the RQIA are except (for the thousandth time) it doesn't mention it anywhere in the original post!
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 19, 2016, 08:09:07 PM
Why did you not ask before you got involved?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 19, 2016, 08:12:30 PM
Come on chaps it's the season of goodwill. Personally I think the original posting could be answered without regard to the geography.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: colin todd on December 19, 2016, 10:04:35 PM
Big Al,  I have some sympathy with your view, but its not the first time that people have given advice that is wrong in the context of NI and Scottish legislation.  That's why its dangerous for people to rely on the advice of strangers down the pub (unless it is someone like Wee B, who is strange, can sometimes be found in the pub but is generally spot on the mark).

Anyhow, has that poor wee Galway girl got the answer she needs, which is more to the point.  In summary, dont rush to a heat detector, but think about an ICSD (if there is one in the range of the manufacturer) or check what their multi sensors are capable of doing. 
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 20, 2016, 09:20:09 AM
First of all a note to hmcb1976 to say I hope the shenanigans that have arisen from your posting have not put you off for the future. You really are welcome and the detail you provided in your subsequent posts indicated to me that other than for your initial query that are well on top of this issue to an extent that most fire safety professionals would not consider.

Colin I can't believe you dismissed a fellow professional as a poor wee Galway girl. Can you not see how insulting this is? Obviously a need for some training for you.

As for Wee B I guess you have said enough to warrant your bottle of Ministry Christmas scotch.

I don't disagree that an ionisation detector is likely to reduce unwanted alarms, whilst on the face of it satisfying the Authorities but I was more concerned not to paper over the cracks but to educate them to remove this misperception that a detector in the room will give early enough warning to prevent injury or death as the inspection team is likely to carry it with them and repeat it at all homes they visit. Or is that just me over complicating things as usual?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: Fishy on December 20, 2016, 09:24:46 AM
Very good point about the multi-sensors - I had cause to look into the detail of how they work a few years ago & it's inconsistent.  For example, I looked at the Hochiki multi-sensor and as a default this uses the heat detector to vary the sensitivity of the smoke detector - but only by 1% so it might be less prone to false alarms than a standard detector, but by no means immune.

It's usually very hard to find this detail in the product literature - they're often quite vague (perhaps deliberately so).  
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on December 20, 2016, 10:17:55 AM
Yes those I have worked with offer a range of sensitivities or "states" selected by the engineer, in respect of smoke detection rate of rise and peak temperature, which can be varied to find a combination that suits the environment. The bottom line is that on extreme settings the smoke detection is switched off and you have a heat detector and vice versa. Hopefully Dave R will see this and enlighten us?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 22, 2016, 12:02:00 PM

Hi all,

looking some advice from all you knowledgeable folk  ::)

Care Home with a designated smoking room for residents. Fitted with a Photo Electric Detector, when there are 4-5 smokers in the room, fire alarm activates. This has resulted in a number of false alarms. ventilation system has been upgraded, no combustible materials in the room except clothing worn by the smokers.

Looking for people's opinion on what the best form of fire detection is?  I have recommended a fixed temp 57 Deg C heat detector, this has been refused by the registration body on the grounds that if somebody sets their clothing / hair on fire a heat detector will not activate quickly enough to prevent injury to the smoker. Is it not widely accepted that no detector will pick up this sort of fire rapidly enough to prevent injury / burns to the smoker??

 The inspector is insisting on a smoke detector being fitted to the room, would you good folk recommend an ionisation smoke detector?

Your thoughts would be warmly welcomed as I'm fighting a losing battle!!

Many thanks,



I would be inclined not to fight them Hmcb. They consider themselves experts now so give them what they want. In the event of the F&RService sending out their standard "too many false alarms" letter your client can direct it to those responsible.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: lyledunn on December 22, 2016, 05:40:46 PM
NI. Clearly false alarms are a serious concern. My own view would be that the current situation is not fixable by detector choice. The room should be closed and the smokers moved out of the building, perhaps to some purpose-built external shelter. Smoking inside care homes by anyone should not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 23, 2016, 10:37:34 AM
The only fire caused by smoking I have experience of Lyle happened outside a cre home between the building and its external smoking shelter.

Making residents go outside to have a smoke has its own problems where additional staff is needed to ensure residents don't do a runner. At least when they are inside in a designated room where they can be more easily monitored.

The other serious issue I have experience of was in a sheltered housing situation where some very high risk smokers were presenting a significant risk to other users and staff. The residents were allowed to smoke in their bedrooms and some of the things they were doing with smoking materials would make you cringe. I wanted a total ban on internal smoking but the various regulatory bodies considered this a breach of their human rights. Can you believe it?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: lyledunn on December 23, 2016, 01:11:52 PM
Human rights should not result in the impairment of safety of fellow humans. Precedents already set when we banned the nicotine addicts to cold haunts outside the pub front door. My daughters flat mate cited human rights when I told her that lighting candles in her bedroom was outlawed (me being the law as I was the landlord). Despite it being a modern house, FDs30 and ASD etc to her bedroom, the hierarchy of risk control prevailed and the hazard was eliminated. Tough!!
I have no interest in care homes, at least not just yet, and certainly no expertease in that area, however, if you follow the RQIAs own recommendations on smoking policy for care homes which requires the issue of service users smoking to be appropriately risk assessed, you could easily arrive at the conclusion that it is indeed intolerable.
See RQIA Guidance on Service Users Smoking in Resedential Care and Nursing Homes.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: Bruce89 on December 23, 2016, 01:38:03 PM
Going off the thread a bit I know but when we talk about human rights, that's why FRS's have seen a massive increase in calls to fires in prison cells. Good this human rights stuff isn't it.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on December 23, 2016, 03:20:51 PM
You're quite right Lyle. But I'm afraid some statutory bodies don't agree.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: hmcb1976 on January 03, 2017, 09:21:45 PM
Thank you to all who were decent enough to reply to my query.

To be honest I think some of you got a bit tied up in irrelevant geographical knots!!!

Kurnal - we have thick skin in Norn Iron takes a lot to knock us down.

Colin ...... I'm shocked 😔 After spending several hours with you in Benedicts a few years ago (and a few whiskeys later) I thought you would know Galway is not in NI ! Galway Has nothing on us 😜😜
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: colin todd on January 06, 2017, 08:54:04 PM
I was thinking of explaining to Big Al about the skin thickness of the good people of NI, which is not subject to modern political correctness nonsense that pervades England, but as the old boy was on his headmasterish soap box, I didnt bother, though I knew you would not be offended. And nothwithstanding the side of the border in which Galway is located, tomorrow night one of Benedict's favourite bands will be playing at out company Christmas party, where I will be honoured to play drums with them for a few numbers-including Galway girl, though I have asked The Professionals to change the words to Galway professional person.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: kurnal on January 06, 2017, 11:22:07 PM
Todd Minor  stop winging and get on with your 500 linez otherwise you will feel the sharp side of my quill.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: colin todd on January 09, 2017, 09:21:55 PM
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Happy?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: nearlythere on January 11, 2017, 07:35:31 AM
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So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
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So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
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So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
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So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
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So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person
So I took her hand and I gave her a twirl and I lost my heart to a Galway professional person

Happy?
Come on Dot. Tell the truth. You lost your heart to a Galway what?
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: colin todd on January 12, 2017, 12:09:54 AM
Ok Almost.  Girl. But dont tell Big Al or he will get mad with me again.
Title: Re: Detector in Care Home Smoking Lounge
Post by: Davo on January 12, 2017, 07:23:52 PM
Whoops, me and my big gob ::)

davo