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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: stevew on March 07, 2017, 05:52:28 PM
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Ref an external escape route across a flat roof. Is it acceptable to have a non maintained emergency lighting system without primary lighting. The system operates on a mains failure and on the activation of the fire alarm system.
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No - Why have escape lighting if you don't need primary lighting? If you have neither then I would go for maintained lighting and kill two birds with one stone as they say.
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It is something I have often come across i.e. an external fire escape with non maintained E.L. but no primary lighting, no good if the E.L. doesn't come on which it won't if the fire doesn't affect the mains etc.
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Bruce Almighty, Why dont they wire the EL in an FR cable just to make sure it never comes on.
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I agree that a maintained system would have resolved the issue.
The hotel appear to have been advised that linking the EL system to the fire alarm will ensure that the system will operate.
I fail to understand why they would deviate from the recognised standard when it has only recently been put in following a complaint to the FS three months ago.
The FS consider that the arrangement is acceptable.
Colin are you saying not acceptable.
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Is there any borrowed lighting for the staircase? This would make a difference.
If the fire brigade has agreed to the setup as described make sure you get it in writing!
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Strictly speaking the answer is no. EL is a backup to the normal lighting so if that's all you've got then its an under-provision.
Permanent lighting can be a problem in terms of nuisance/light pollution and its a waste of energy if the route is only there for emergency use.
Its common to have a stairwell where the normal lighting is operated via a time switch so the lights are not always on.
So I think you could do something similar. Either a time switch or PIR to activate a normal lighting system whenever its needed plus some sort of EL system to cover a failure in the normal lighting.
The fire service (in E&W at least) have no powers to approve anything so do what you think is right.
If the job is building work then you might need Building Control Approval.
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Not a client, I was only staying at the hotel as a guest. I first queried the standard with the FS after my stay last year.
Happened to stay there again on Monday so took the opportunity to check.
The standard I refer to above was confirmed by the inspecting officer in a telephone conversation.
Perhaps a letter to the FA might get them to explain the standard and their reasons for accepting it.
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Either that or have a torch in your overnight bag ;D
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Ed Gallea advocates that Bruce Almighty. Steven, I was not saying not acceptable, I was saying not sane, rational or on plant Earth. However, my recommendation to you when you stay in hotels is to do as I do, namely give not a whit to the fire precautions, order a double Talisker from room service and go to sleep.
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As a Fire Alarm Installer, we regularly, (at least once a month), are asked to install an EL system to an outside staircase, in buildings where we look after the FA & if it exists, the internal EL.
The normal reason, is that the Fire Risk Assessor wants it. Trying to explain to a client that EL is intended for times when the "normal" electrical lighting has failed, is hard work, because they just want a tick in a box, to satisfy the risk assessor.
We cost for a system with either switches or movement sensors, and lose the job because it is "Over the Top" and "Didn't need all those extras", then at a later stage are asked to add the new EL installed without any existing lights, to the maintenance schedule, as the installers don't do maintenance.
The other common scenario, is the shared external staircase where the lighting comes from one buildings power source (Say Block A), and is deemed ok, because the risk assessor has seen it exists when doing the risk assessment for another block (Say Block B), with just a simple note to say make sure it is maintained. No light switches (or inside the occupancy of Block A).
Can you tell I hate EL.
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Talisker, CT???
Highland Park got relegated?
davo
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i have always had a preference for Talisker, but, in England, you are just glad to find any malt. When you ask for a double malt whisky, I have been told countless times that they cant find a double malt would a single malt do.
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Talisker, CT???
Highland Park got relegated?
davo
Talisker? That's what you get when you boil a lump of turf for 3 days and bottle the soup.
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I think, this is the point where I ask you to stick to the subject.
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I think, this is the point where I ask you to stick to the subject.
Think we're going to call you The Nark. The last one mellowed as he got older but you seem to be very young.
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I think, this is the point where I ask you to stick to the subject.
Think we're going to call you The Nark. The last one mellowed as he got older but you seem to be very young.
What I should have said in a mature fashion was "well he started it!"
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I don't doubt it - but I'm going to stop it.
Regards
The Nark
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Back to the real world here and we do seem to have our general and emergency lighting standards slip somewhat especially externally. The provision of both is an important component of an effective evacuation strategy but we don't seem to treat it as such.
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sorry mein neu fuhrer!
Agree with DD!
davo
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I think that Steve is right to question what might be perceived to be failings in fire safety arrangements. When I joined IFPO I understood the intention of the organisation was implicit in the title and members would adhere to that ethos, whether on duty or not.
Any way, I very much agree with Nearlythere with respect to the slip in standards, even if they weren't very good in the first place!
The change in electrical installation contract procurement has seen the traditional consultant-designed project give way to a design and build type approach. Electrical contractors now often act as designers, installers and verifiers. Many feel confident in their capabilities but that doesn't necessarily equate to competence when considering emergency lighting systems. What can a fire risk assessor really do other than identify that there appears to be adequate provision and have a look at the associated documentation? Whether the system operates on failure of the local lighting or operates via inputs to relays is a matter for the designer or verifier. If either function is less than it should be because the electrical contractor performing those roles is not sufficiently knowledgeable in emergency lighting requirements, then less than adequate installations will continue to be provided: unless, of course, people like Steve put their head above the parapet!