FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Service Training OR Recruitment => Topic started by: smudger on March 05, 2006, 12:57:38 PM
-
My brigade has recently introduced this PQA's carry on for a selection process for job vacancies, does anyone out there have examples of the answers that are required as the brigade will not show us what they expect us to use as our answers and we are all left wondering what the bench marks is that we have to achieve
-
See www.fireservice.co.uk and don't expect model answers, if you haven't got the right answers then you haven't got the necessary PQAs. Simple really as the answers should be your own experiences and the way you handle them, if you haven't the experience, or handled them wrongly then you haven't the right qualities. Look at the bulletin board too.
-
fireftrm - i do have concerns when a brigade uses a process that isnt clear to those involved in the process - even more so when i am constantly 'informed' of processes that are introduced at a 'whim' and on occasion contradict the whole process! (who operates the fire service uk site - let me know privately if necessary)
smudge - fireftrm has pointed you in a 'direction' that may help - i would suggest you question why you are taking part in a process you dont understand - is it your fault or the brigades - only you can answer that cos you know if any opportunities were offered to you with regards to unerstanding the process.
dave bev
-
Fireftrm-I Think i do have the experience that is required but my problem with the PQA's is that in the last selection process guys were being marked down for using words like we instead of me and I instead of we.All i would like to see is what is required in relation to the wording of an answer. The brigade have been unwilling so far to produce any examples so we are all left in the dark.
Dave bev-I am taking part in this process as this is the way the brigade is going, I want to get a substansive post so i can then start to look towards the next level.i have been temporary for a year now as well as others in the brigade and the brigade are hoping to get all the temporary post filled by summer.i am not alone in feeling confused by this whole process, we had a meeting last week about r2r and at the end questions were raised by the majority attending the meeting about the PQA's and what level of answer is required.
-
I take it by PQAs you mean those daft questions that everybody makes up the answers to? !!
Give an example of this that and the other... Describe a time..... What nonsense do you have to offer this role...... have you been in a difficult situation other than this interview....
All a load of piffle! I got my last job by giving the pannel the answers they wanted to hear, I didn't think a word of it was the truth! If I hadn't given those answers then i would't have got the job, crazy.
How can you find out about someone by asking these daft questions? Most of the lads i work with have twigged on to the stuff these people want to hear and are passing these interviews but my point here is, what is the point? I have never seen the value in
rank to role and ADCs and don't think I will be able to progress any further as a result.
Sorry for being so negative.
-
Just adding to what seem to be negative comments. I am also a little bemussed by these PQA's that somebody somewhere has thought of. when you read these PQA's and look at them in depth they are a load of educated jargon, aren't they? I am a firefighter, yet when I recently went for a job interview (which lasted a good 45 mins) I was never once asked how good I was at fire fighting, RTC rescues, water rescue, first aid, or anything else that a fire fighter has to do in a split second on the fire ground. These kind of things are what makes a GOOD fire fighter, not filling in paperwork or spending time ensuring they have the correct PQA's. If you are a good fire fighter then you WILL have what is required from the PQA's, yet that is not enough. I understand the importance of change and the ever modernising fire services (hey, thats a PQA, see with out knowing it I fulfill one of them) but there is a point where these interview panels have to consider how good you are on a fire ground through experience on the fire ground.
Oh, by the way I failed the interview to transfer brigade as I hadn't enough experience with diversity. Well I thought I had, but not enough to fulfill the appropriate PQA!!!!!!!
-
PQA's are the way all interviews will be.
The national firefighter selection process is now based on PQA's, so it's here to stay and something you have to take on board and get used to ... all part of IPDS.
Having been both an interviewer and interviewee under this, I see both sides. The object of them is to ascertain how you behave in certain situations, using your own experiences. They are not just produced on a whim ...... they are properly researched and have been around in industry for a long time. To quote a line from the training I received ...... the best indicator of future performance is your past behaviour.
I accept that to pass the interviews seems difficult, but you must have an understanding of the PQA's themselves in terms of what they are asking. Also the interview is not one you can just blag ........ there are ways through the questioning of establishing that you are not quite telling the truth or just making something up for the sake of that time.
Information relating to the PQA's is available on the intenet or www.ipds.co.uk
-
Reading these posts makes me glad I left LAFB, PQAs rolemaps, gathering evidence? Sorry lads but good luck to you.
-
Congratulations to me I've just been promoted by this method
I am now a Station Officer in fire safety just by answering a few questions on
planning a event or project, openess to change (whatever that is) and diversity.
No questions on fire safety, what a result!!!!!!!!!
-
Well done you!!!
See, It's not that bad after all is it?
-
black arts, that is my point exactly!! There are some dam awful JOs & Officers about as a result of PQAs!
-
I think the PQA's are widely available, as are the behaviours that under pin them. I just did a search on 'Fire Service PQA' via google. Looks like the Scottish fire service have been down this route for a while. One site gave all the supervisory PQAs, the constituent parts (constructs) and the behaviours that they are measured by (the BARS). They look a bit vague and generic, the tough bit will be grounding them so that people can make sense of them to write and talk about them, and to assess them fairly and objectively.
I didn't take a detailed look but I bet the word 'appropriate' features . One person's appropriate is another person's inappropriate.
-
Although in principle, PQA's have their merits-its the'educated jargon' that lets them down.As an interviewer of potential Retained FF I find the expressions used in the questions 'exclusive' ie most people have not got a clue what I am asking!I have had blank looks from degree educated applicants to people with no formal qualifications but still successful business owners struggle-so it can't be their fault!Thankfully we have 'supplementary ' questions that we can ask-ie the same question in simple language!
-
Im even more confused now!!... Last year I went to the ADC, however i was not successfull in getting a job. I was given a debrief on my interview and my submitted PQA's. I was told what PQA's got top marks and what ones needed work on for next year!
I have just got word through that i didnt even get an interview this year because of my PQA's!! When debriefed on the problem, PQA's that i got top marks on last year were marked low, some as low as 40%. I hadnt even changed one single word!!
I was told by my ACO that it depends on the panel marking it, but what he assured me was that everyones would be marked in the same context!!
I thanked the ACO for clearing this misunderstanding up for me... and quietly left the room
-
The marking is attributed to the skill of the interviewer and note taker.
To score, you have to hit constructs ..... behavioural traits which are supported by evidence such as quotes etc.
If the evidence isn't there, you don't get the mark. Sounds ridiculous I know, but thats the way it is!!
-
The systems was supposed to be introduced in order to allow firefighters who suffer from exam nerves, dyslexia and many other conditions to be able to get promoted by proving that they are the right people for the job, what has happened instead is that the system is now more able to be abused than the old system. I know of a senior officer who was doing interviews and gave mock interviews to candidates in order to train his interview skills. Funnily enough, every single person from his cronies and hangers on who had a mock interview passed the adc. When my mate asked if he could have a mock interview with this particular senior officer, he was told that he should "Just get on with it, if you're good enough you'll pass anyway, if not you won't" Guess what, he never passed.
Same **** , different process (only now open to even more abuse)
-
Kaiser, your spot on! Thats my experience of the new system
-
Kaiser
Sounds like the fault is not with the system but with your mates senior Officer.
If he had been given guidance and help with what to expect, it sounds like he would have also passed.
-
Does anyone know what's going on with the PQAs at the moment? I don't know if it's something to do with the changeover to rolling recruitment, but I recently applied for retained fire fighter position in the surrey area. They sent me through an application that was part retained questions (i.e. "do you live within 4 minutes of a station" etc) but was also all 6 150-word questions (a wholetimers-PQA standard) - and has now resulted in me apparently getting an interview on March 2nd for wholetime !?
-
The Natioanl firefghter selction tests are compulsory for all duty systems from April. Surrey have obvioulsy applied them now. How do you know your interview is for a WDS post and not RDS? If it is, well done and look forward to a fulfilling full time career, many would be very jealous of this success. Either way there should be written and practical tests beforee the interview, so it may be that they haven't fully applied the new tests and this is RDS interview and the only part they have so far implemented is the application form?
-
If you need info on National firefighter selection tests try www.hantsfire.gov.uk/southeastguidance.pdf and http://www.fireservice.co.uk/recruitment/newtests.php you may find it of some use.
-
As a matter of interest myself and a workmate sent an application form for the East Mids recruitment. We got a friend of ours who is a recruitment consultant to read over the PQAs (as that is basicly all the form consists of)she approved them and said that they matched the required standard.
Guess what? We didn't get a response!! PQAs are the way forward are they? God help us all. More like selection by diversity forms. Next time I'll submit the same PQAs but put down that I am a gay foreign ethnic minority and see what result I get?
I also know of several people that have applied for Retained jobs in the East Mids brigades and got fed up very quickly with it all. No wonder they are so dangerously short
-
I'm facing death by PQAs this week.
Any up to date advice?
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
-
What you hav'nt done convincingly make up-embellish the truth-but it must be believable,have at least 3 examples of what you have done for each PQA.If it was a 'team effort' make sure you tell them about your part.Make sure you say 'I did' not 'we did'
Remember,PQA's require you to know nothing about the fire service so no matter what you have done before it is worthless,unless you can relate it to a PQA!
-
I recently had to sit through another PQA 'brief'. (trying to get Ffs to apply for ADCs) I left no more the wiser than before (and bored to tears). I have now given up all hope of ever getting promoted by answering PQA questions there just nonsense. The vast majority of Ffs on my station now feel the same way as me.
Speaking to other Ffs around the brigades it would appear we are not alone! Is there any proof yet that these ADC/PQAs are actualy working and encoraging development or is it just the case that some superb Ffs have given up on promotion because they have had enough of PQAs!
Even if you can put up with attending an ADC or answering PQAs your ADC ticket only lasts for a year so if there are no sutible vacancies you have to go through it all again!
As for: 'if you haven't got the right answers then you haven't got the necessary PQAs' Well I realy am lost with that comment. If there is no 'model' answer to a PQA then they are a waste of time. I was subjected to an explanation of BARs. My god what a load of piffle. These are supposed to help the person marking your comments to see if you have the right PQAs? Give me strength, who thinks of the stuff?
-
Ach well, there's always next time! That was an awful experience indeed.
-
grim future-lots of promotions over last few years-of relatively young people- because of the retirement of all those additional staff taken on in the 70's.those people now in middle/senior positions can now stay even longer-don't have to retire- can add up to 15 years on their retirement date
not only dead man shoes,loads of people elegible for few jobs,now have to also compete with the 'tesco's manager' because of PQA's.Result-less 'career' fire fighters/officers-no incentive to stay because of lack of prospects.No secret on how that will effect the moral/effectiveness of your future fire service.
-
grim future-lots of promotions over last few years-of relatively young people- because of the retirement of all those additional staff taken on in the 70's.those people now in middle/senior positions can now stay even longer-don't have to retire- can add up to 15 years on their retirement date
not only dead man shoes,loads of people elegible for few jobs,now have to also compete with the 'tesco's manager' because of PQA's.Result-less 'career' fire fighters/officers-no incentive to stay because of lack of prospects.No secret on how that will effect the moral/effectiveness of your future fire service.
apologies-should have said 'dead persons ' shoes.
-
Hi all, im new to this site. Im coming out of the RAF, currently been working there as a Firefighter for nearly 4 years. i have an interview with the MOD DFS fire service very soon and was wondering if you guys had any advice?? i am currently looking and reeading through the PQA list i got from ipds.co.uk, Any additonal help from guys that have just passed or had interviews would be gratefully accepted. thanks
-
You can expect questions on "hot" topics such as Diversity, change, development etc. It's not an easy thing to study for but the best advice I was given actually came from posts on here.
If you can get two or three scenarios for each PQA topic and apply "STAR" to it ie:
This was the situation
This was my task
This is what action I took
This was the result
Concentrate most on the action taken as this is where you will demonstrate your "qualities" and "attributes".
I hope this helps, it worked for me, although if you follow my posts you will see that I had no idea that I was going to be successful!
Best of luck......
-
Thanks for that Lawman, like i said i have pirnt out of PQA's from IPDS site abd started to look at it last night, picking out key words and such. Realise theres alot to remember and probably impossible to remember it all. but your system seems great to follow. I've been told that they will ask questions that they ask on my application form? should i remember those just or do as you suggested and think of more scenerios??
-
did you recently have a interview Lawman?? with MOD or Local? did you get in? and how long did it take to hear back after interview if you have??
-
I think The Lawman`s advice sounds good I would also have alternative scenerios aswell. I have it on good advice that one question that catches the unprepared out is the "that`s fine, but can you give me another example of when you........."
-
Cheers lads, any more advice would be great. Revising those PQA's everyday and trying to remember them, and the key words. i know it sounds obvious stuff but its the wording that i got to remember.
-
Dear Sirs,
Just an e-mail for you information about how terrible these PQA'S are.
I am a full time serving firefighter, and have just failed an interview to join another brigade Urban Search & Rescue Team.I have now been serving for just short of 10 years and have gained my qualifications in USAR, yet i was unsuccessful due to not being able to fulfill all the relevant PQA'S and a presentation at an interview.My point being that i was not asked about how good i am at my job and USAR.All the other candidates were not trained in USAR and have no experience whatsoever in the field yet one of them passed the interview (How wrong is that?).You just have to hope that interview techniques become a useful tool within the job, though in my experience practical help far outways presentation skills!So despite studying hard to get the relevant qualifications, unless you answer these silly politically correct questions correctly, 'tough luck '.What is this fire service coming to? LET'S PUT THE PUBLIC AT RISK BUT DONT WORRY THEY CAN ANSWER A PQA CORRECTLY.
-
Sorry to hear you were unsuccessful marky.
Did you know about the PQAs before you applied?
Clearly the qualifications that you have were not essential pre-requisites for the job but the PQAs were- this should have been set out in the application pack?. Your skills must have a huge value though. I guess if you could meet the PQAs and with your qualifications you could wipe the floor with any other applicant.
I'm a bit of a dinosaur myself but learned one thing - if you cant beat em join em.
It seems to me that the PQAs are all about this. You can train somone to do anything but its much harder to change inbuilt entrenched attitudes prejudices or predispositions. They would rather have someone with no knowledge of the job but with all the right person skills and attititudes measured by the PQAs that they can then train from scratch to do the job. Trouble is if thats all they check it is years before that person makes an effective contribution to the team, and it ignores the fact that some very nice clever intelligent politically aware and articulate people are absolute duffers and a total liability when it comes to the sharp end.
-
Kurnal
Thanks for your comment, i feel that it has been a bit of a kick in the teeth that i have studied hard to gain these qualifications and that they have not allowed me to be in with a chance unless i get these PQA's right, but although i am feeling a bit down at the moment i will bounce back. It is really there loss. Once again thanks for your comment your last statement really sum's it all up.
-
Hi
i hope you don't mind me posting, but i was hoping i might be able to help. If its any consolation the PQAs aren't just randomly generated 'management speak', they were developed from a huge research project which involved interviewing FRS staff to find out which underlying skills were important to the peopel who do the job. they are supposed to represent what you think. Kurnal is right though about trainability and entrenched attitudes, but i can really feel for all of you who have lots of experience and feel the system is holding you back. if its any help I'm developing a practice mini- application form which probably won't hold any surprises if you have had guidance at your FRS, but the part that might help is that i will write you a feedback report to help you see where you might need to improve, and how to do so! I am looking to trial it with a few people to see how useful you find it and find out what you need so if this woudl help then get in touch hannahvallance@vca.uk.com. I'm developing a whole range of support products to try to overcome people feeling like this about their promotion opportunties, and am happy to hear from you with your comments about what would help
hannah
-
Hi Hannah
Thanks for the information. As I am no longer a serving member pleasse forgive and educate me if I am completely out of touch. I retired from the service in early 2005 just as this policy was coming into being - as a middle manager I dont ever recollect being interviewed as part of the huge research project but I do remember a number of people being seconded away from brigades to work on the IPDS project - I assume this is the work you are referring to.
What concerns me is that the pendulum appears to have swung from one extreme to another. From a promotion system based entirely on technical competence measured by statutory exams followed by rather unscientific and inconsistent interviews used to determine personal qualities we now appear to focus more or less entirely on PQAs with little or no need to assess an individual's technical competence.
Certainly some improvements to the recruitment and promotion selection procedures were necessary but in my view - and only based on what I hear- we seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.
Please educate me if I am completely out of touch with reality. It would not be the first time!!!
-
The PQA's as Hannah points out are the result of much research.
The answers you give are cross checked against constructs or indicators so you need to know what they are looking for in an answer. The most likely indicator of future behaviour in a situation is provided by looking at your past and the PQA's are geared to areas of work, such as working in a team, working in a stressful situation etc etc.
The biggest problem is the fact the people don't actually understand what is being asked ...... or know how to respond in a specific way.
I've been through PQA interviews as part of the promotion proces and I've also been an interviewer ...... it's not easy for the unititiated!
As part of a promotion process, a role related test should be used aswell such as an incident command or training scenario which does test technical knowledge. It seems that some processes don't have this.
-
Kurnal
for someone who has retired i think you have it more or less! I know a lot of people who are a lot more fuzzy about the whole thing, which is a shame. baldyman also seems to know his/her(?!) stuff, being an interviewer can help get your head around it, but these interviews can seem 'unscientific' if they are used by people not trained to do so. there is method in the way they are designed, although they do still have limitations, which is why the ADCs hold so much weight.
my understanding is that the PQAs assess potential, and the development programmes develop these skills within the FRS context of technical application, amongst all the other things that are vital to the role. and there are a lot of things other than technical competence which are vital to the running of such a complex organisation, and its this running of the FRS which is what management roles need to be able to do effectively.
-
The biggest problem is the fact the people don't actually understand what is being asked ...... or know how to respond in a specific way.
I've been through PQA interviews as part of the promotion proces and I've also been an interviewer ...... it's not easy for the unititiated!
Baldyman I take this to indicate that with a little coaching persons can learn to spout the correct answer and display the correct attitude
parrot fashion. If as Hannah says, the PQAs are meant to assess potential, does this not undermine the whole philosophy? My understanding was that the system was intended to identify persons whose attitudes, qualities, morals and ingrained skills could break the traditional "unsatisfactory" mould of the fire services as percieved by George Bain in his fleeting and politically motivated review.
If the PQAs can be failed initially but then "passed" with a little coaching then it must surely be just window dressing without substance.
-
It isn't about spouting a correct answer parrot fashion ...... and with some feedback from an unsuccessful attempt and a bit of hard work, you can pass them.
PQA's ... personal qualities and attributes are a test of how you have behaved in a given situation in the past, which according to the experts who devise them, will be an indicator of future behaviour.
By spending time understanding them and what is being asked, anyone can pass them. It's about having perception and showing what YOU did, not everyone else, as they are not of interest.
With regard to ADC's, there should be an Initial Test of Potential, which tests the PQA's aswell as time management, organisational skills etc.
If this is passed, then an ADC (Assessment and Development Centre) is the next step. this is a series of further tests in given scenarios using role play and could be one to one or a group. This again tests management skills, how you prioritise information and tasks and manage people.
If success is achieved here, then a development programme is the reward.
I'm old enough to remember the statutory exams and managed to get as far as the subs written before they were phased out. My next step will be the Middle Managers ADC ...... as long as I pass the Initial test.
In this modern Service, development is extremely important and this is achieved through feedback from assessors which will identify areas that need development. It relies on candidates doing some work though and being able to take a knock back.
I was deemed "not suitable" for promotion last year following series of assessments. I got my feedback, listened, looked for opportunities that I could use to develop myself, worked hard and have passed this year with the reward of a job, proof that it does work.
-
Thanks for the useful explanation Baldyman.
PQA's ... personal qualities and attributes are a test of how you have behaved in a given situation in the past, which according to the experts who devise them, will be an indicator of future behaviour
Is there any formal development support for people who do not fulfill the PQA requirements?
Following development, support and guidance, is there any evidence that a candidates future perceptions and behaviour will be modified permanently as a result?
Would someone be put in post following the ADC and before any development programme is complete?
In the past there was generally no development other than for standard courses and post promotion interview you were chucked in at the deep end so I am not knocking the new system- just curious to see how much of an improvement it really is in terms of identifying suitable candidates to do a job and supporting them in carrying out that role.
-
Kurnal
for someone who has retired i think you have it more or less! I know a lot of people who are a lot more fuzzy about the whole thing, which is a shame. baldyman also seems to know his/her(?!) stuff, being an interviewer can help get your head around it, but these interviews can seem 'unscientific' if they are used by people not trained to do so. there is method in the way they are designed, although they do still have limitations, which is why the ADCs hold so much weight.
my understanding is that the PQAs assess potential, and the development programmes develop these skills within the FRS context of technical application, amongst all the other things that are vital to the role. and there are a lot of things other than technical competence which are vital to the running of such a complex organisation, and its this running of the FRS which is what management roles need to be able to do effectively.
A flaw in the system must surely be that if so much importance is put on the ADC in getting better managers over what the old exam system delivered then why have only 1 ADC per maagment level.
The result being for example a CM in position under the old system can go for a WM position with only the PQA based interview, so if the ADC is so imprtant then why not have 1 for each promotion.
As someone who is currently caught in the new promotion process, i have both the JO/1 and JO/2 tickets for what they are now worth and have completed the ADC and am awaiting my development plan i can see some benefits, the ADC was quite a positive experience, but also some negatives, ie promotion with no technical or practical exams.
It seems to me that rather than being a fairer system for development for all, you could say that dependant on your position at the time of introduction you may have to jump through more or less hoops to get to the same grade ie WM, and as i have already said if the ADC is such an integral part of getting better managers then surely everyone should go through it.
-
To progress from Crew to Watch Manager and Station to Group Manager, there are in-band processes. These supplement the ADC levels of management. Some services are using just an interview to promote in band, others use job related tests and assessments.
Job related tests should test technical and practical knowledge that is expected of the level of management. For example, I have recently been assessed using a written exam for the technical knowlede, a presentation of demographic information and an incident command assessment commensurate with Watch Manager B.
The old style exams, which I have passed were a test of memory and demonstration of one's ability to to oversee a standard drill and small incident aswell as deliver a debrief.
ADC's are aimed at testing management skills. As a manager, you are expected to manage.
There are problems with the ADC process, but it appears that theses may be caused by a lack of understanding both of those taking them and those assessing. It's all new and shiny and will take some time to bed in, but it also relies on peoples ability to adapt to the new processes and leave the past exams behind, even though it does grind that all that time and effort has now been for what appears to be nothing.
In financial terms it is impossible to have an ADC at each level and once on development, it's up to you to gather evidence to support a claim that you are competent against the role maps.
Post dispute, all existing managers were deemed competent for pay purposes only, so who's to say that assesments for competence won't be introduced for managers?
-
JO1 and JO2 tickets? What are they. I went on JOA part 1 and part 2 courses, but they were not tickets for promotion, they wrre courses, no more. Also there was no exam/set test past StnO, unlike the new system.................
-
JO1 and JO2 qualifications, as in you had completed technical and practical examinations to the level of Lff and SubO these then gave access to a promotion board through an application sift for whatever qualification/ticket you held.
As i said earlier i am not against the new system it just appears that not everyone has to jump through the same hoops, and from my experience of having been offered promotion to SubO after several years as a ALff under the old system using a PQA based application and interview, and having had to decline due to personel reasons i now find myself a year on awaiting my CM development plan under the new system, ADC etc, and watching the current applicants for WM only having a PQA based interview this is what i mean by the statement not everyone jumping through the same hoops.
Like i said i am not against the new system but what does appear apparent is the large differences in the system from brigade to brigade and the lack of understanding throughout, this could be down to individuals not enquiring or a lack of breifing by brigades.