FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Control => Topic started by: Midland Retty on January 20, 2009, 04:56:52 PM
-
What do you think about Regional Fire Controls? Post your poll / vote here.
The options on the poll dont allow you to expand on why you may or may not like the issues of Regional Controls in detail, but you can expland by posting a comment in the main thread below.
This is not a barbed question and I have no motives, other than curiosity, to find out what people think about Regionalised Fire Control Centres
-
a wee bit difficult this one Retty. My memory of the superb service consistently delivered by a Brigade level control room colours my opinion in comparison with some unknown outcome. The fears of service 'drop' are easliy counted, but whether these fears would actually affect the primary functions will only become clear once one (or several) of the Regional Controls becomes operative.
I have this horrible worry that we won't know for sure until after the 'lick and see' exercise.
-
I understand 'they' are looking having a 'supersize' one at Waterbeach, Cambridge.
-
When I was in the service I was project officer on the upgrading of the brigade's control room in one of the shire birgades, in fact the project came up with the solution that enabled regionalisation of control rooms.
One of the factors that we looked at was the efficiency of the control staff, I am not referring to how well they did their job which in line with all the control staff I have worked with, was of the highest standard. It was the number of calls handled per operator. We established the minimum number of staff we needed to be on duty which was three. One to handle the incoming call, one to handle the radio and one to supervise. Working on the usual crewing formula that allowed for leave, training, meal breaks etc. we needed 5 per watch. I worked out a comparison between the number of calls handled per operator in our brigade verses the number of calls handled by a operator in London and not surprisingly the London operator handled far more calls than ours did. We did look at several solutions to this one was to combine our control with that of the Ambulance service and another was to combine with neighbouring brigades. The reason these initiatives failed was political the chief officers did not want to lose 'their' control rooms, the ambulance service failed when a chief officer went on record stating that the fire brigade should take over the ambulances. The system we deployed was capable of doing both these roles and for a period we did work an arrangement with another brigade where our emergency control would be set up in their control room and their control could run our brigade whilst our staff evacuated to their control to take back the function. It worked in exercises, fortunately it never had to be put into action for real.
The principal is sound and there are obvious financial advantages for non metropolitan brigades.
The argument about local knowledge is a red herring in that ever since the days of phoning or running to the local fire station controls have always relied on some type of database whether paper or computer based to mobilise the correct attendance. Mistakes have happened given the number of 'High Streets' or 'Church Lanes' they are inevitable but these happen regardless of the size of the brigade.
What does concern me is the reason and the way the regionalisation project is being run. The background seems to have more of a political agenda rather than the practical one and the government's track record of this type of project is not good.
-
All current staff have to sign the OS Act, the political agenda remark is extremely relevant. There is another element which is to be based within these centres which makes them a convenient and secure regional base for them. Sorry guys I've been told more but best not expand.
The Control Centres are all built except the London unit which has just been begun construction. They are all the same size i.e. no supersize units and all currently manned only by the facilities company and security staff. By the time London is handed over the others will be due a refurb.
-
It does concern me that for the sake of apparently using staff more efficiently, and thereby hopefully saving money, we are putting all our eggs in seven baskets, rather than resources distributed evenly about the counties.
So if some nasty-minded persons want to knock out the FRS controls, they only need 7 lots of explosives rather 40 or so.....?
I am certain I've read in the past year that this is the major reason that the Police have refused to have regional controls rather than force-based controls. And they handle far more calls than the FRS....
With modern communications I fail to see why a distributed system (ie closely linked county FRS controls) cannot be efficient and much more resilient under serious incident conditions (or even positive attack) than seven regional controls.
I stress this is very much a personal viewpoint!
-
I have never known terrorists attempting to take out Brigade controls or resources in the UK. It is pretty low in the pecking order. Terrorists would have bigger targets in mind. Fire service operations would be fairly insignificant during terrorist attacks anyway and there is little point in attacking brigade resources because they will normally have reserve centres which could operate in case of main control centre failure.
-
It does concern me that for the sake of apparently using staff more efficiently, and thereby hopefully saving money, we are putting all our eggs in seven baskets, rather than resources distributed evenly about the counties.
So if some nasty-minded persons want to knock out the FRS controls, they only need 7 lots of explosives rather 40 or so.....?
I am certain I've read in the past year that this is the major reason that the Police have refused to have regional controls rather than force-based controls. And they handle far more calls than the FRS....
With modern communications I fail to see why a distributed system (ie closely linked county FRS controls) cannot be efficient and much more resilient under serious incident conditions (or even positive attack) than seven regional controls.
I stress this is very much a personal viewpoint!
How about "Modernisation?" (cutbacks) for justification (must be saving some money somewhere - jobs, property costs etc?) or lack of current sufficient security for the must have bomb proof inner core et al? ::)
-
Whats happening with the regional control project? Heard a rumour that the projects have been put on hold and some teams downscaled pending the next election when the project will quietly be ditched. Any truth in this do you think? Any projects online yet or near to completion?
-
Reg control was pie in the sky. Anyone who supports it deserves it. Me? If I call the FB I want they to come to my house as soon as possible, because the controllers in my area know where I am.
But hows about a two tier call out system system?
Local control costing £?? per month or Prescott Control - free ?? (Don't forget that he's the goon responsible for it).
Which one would you trust?
-
Only news I have heard is that my local one at Castle Donnington has been delayed and will not open for a couple of years. Usual government project over budget and behind schedule.
Cue jokes: What is an elephant? A mouse built to government specifications.
-
The regional fire control project is still going ahead, The Midlands region goes live very soon.
-
Whats happening with the regional control project? Heard a rumour that the projects have been put on hold and some teams downscaled pending the next election when the project will quietly be ditched. Any truth in this do you think? Any projects online yet or near to completion?
I have heard that too Kurnal.
It would appear that the likely next PM is dead against the idea.
-
Prof
The one here will 'not be operational until 2011'
(Nice building, wonder if they'd sell?)
davo
-
I see from the news today Ministers are still keen to do this...........
davo
-
Costs have spiralled out of control. John (two pie and chips - large) Prescott's baby this is.
-
The result of Prescott's leadership.
http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/fire-control-almost-an-unmitigated-disaster-as-bbc-reveals-1m-a-month-wastage?OmniTest_CampName=editorialnewsletter-27-08-10&OmniCamp_Name=editorialnewsletter-27-08-10&OmniWS_Name=info4fire.com&OmniWS_ID=265&OmniPR_Name=Newsletter_Info4Fire%20Weekly&OmniPR_ID=1506&OmniLink_Label=Fire%20Control%20'almost%20an%20unmitigated%20disaster'%20as%20BBC%20reveals%20%C2%A31m%20a%20month%20wastage&OmniDBG_URN=&OmniDBG_File_ID=&OmniSeg_Code=&OmniCC_Code=&OmniComp_Name=&OmniJob_Title=&Omni_Source=
-
The radio programme can be listened to again via BBC iPlayer at the link below. Worth a listen.
http://beta.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00tgwlf/Face_the_Facts_Money_To_Burn/
-
Getting shafted was the punishment for going on strike - disguised as modernisation. The government wanted to teach the fire service a lesson. It all started from Steven Byers recommending firefighters lobby for a pay raise. Then boom. Andy Gilchrist got seduced down a road where he thought he was in control and leading the charge for rank and file, but HMG backed him into a corner.
So we got ranks to roles which hasnt worked. Make the fire service corporate, not military like has been the tack recently. We have managers now rather than officers and commanders. Watch Manager As and Bs which were Sub Officers and Station officers in my day in line with other emergency and millitary services. But what has actually changed nowadays apart form titles.
Ranks to roles , doesnt that mean a fire safety officer should be just that- a fire safety officer - not a watch manager A or B in the fire safety dept? cos doesnt a watch manager manage a watch? and a fire safety officer inspect buildings? oh sorry me being silly. What a waste of money making nonsensical changes to the system.
Funny out of all of this modernisation no Chief Fire Officer has styled themself as Brigade Manager as was supposed to be the case. I wonder why. Oh yes silly me Brigade Manager doesnt sound glamourous or important enough and those colleagues of theirs in the police force aka the Chief Constables would laugh at them and look down their noses. One rule for the lads down at the masonic lodge one rule for the rest.
Then they fiddle with fire controls. Dont get me started. One million a month spent on empty buildings, spiralling budgets, think tanks pressing ahead with ideas without consulting the people who actually use the facilities. No wonder this country is in a mess. But as usual no one is held account. Isnt that strange, I dont think.
-
I hope this control regionalisation program gets stopped in its tracks. Theres much more to their role than handling 999 calls and turning out fire appliances. Obviously firefighting can be harrowing, arduous and involve long hours, exposure to trauma. Few staff stretched in all manner of ways. In the old days the control staff would know their crews well and were an integral part of the brigade team. They kept an eye on us and looked out for us. They had topography skills, they knew their patch and local landmarks, very often helping to pin point the inaccurate locations provided by callers. All of this is of great value as part of an effective and efficinet fire service, and all is likely to suffer as a result of regionalisation.
And now the coalition Government is talking of cutting back further to just 3 centres. The next step will be to staff them with security guards not fire control staff.
Let us hope that the plug is pulled on this ill conceived, wasteful and service damaging project before its too late. For the sake of our fire and rescue services.
-
Kurnal, While none of this is of any interest to me if I am really honest, I feel bound to ask the question re knowledge of topography etc, how have the highlands and islands f&rs always managed fine with the largest fire brigade area in europe, taking calls from the whole of the highlands, the western isles, orkneys and shetlands. (Ok, often they do have the benefit of a scottish education and as in the case of all H&I people have a lovely nature, but its still a big area to know.)
-
It is a very big area and they know it very well. Relatively few urban areas, roads sparse but many topographical features. Fairly low resource levels to service the area. The knowledge has been gained over many years and local interest sparks enthusiasm for learning it and above all ownership of their patch. Yes their patch is bigger but there is less within it. Like in those areas of the Higlands where the nearest shop is 40 miles away- its still their "Local" shop. Ownership not only brings out the best levels of service, it also brings true job satisfaction.
I know that the value of such knowledge is not to be underestimated. Having been tasked with producing a complete mobilising gazetteer for my last brigade including geographical features, special risks, SSSIs and monuments as well as roads and buildings, then mixing in proximity data and appliance routing data for mobilising before tom tom had even been dreamed about I do have some interest in this topic.
Those modernisers who seem to think that digital networks and sat navs can replace this are in cloud cuckoo land. Just as when we lost our officers PMR radios in favour of cellphones and then were always outside range or worse still the network clogged for major emergencies. The much publicised prioritisation for emergency services only worked for a few gold command nominated phones. And sat nav and computers are hopeless for mobilising when numerous roads are blocked by landslip, snow or floods. Thats when the local knowledge comes into its own.