FireNet Community
THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Press Releases => Topic started by: David Rooney on August 18, 2016, 01:40:24 PM
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So what's going wrong??
With our improved Building Regulations, the FSO, British Standard revision after revision ......, super advanced early detection technology (bit of a waste of time within a "stay put policy" if you ask me but hey ho .....) and redcare monitored signalling - although that is pretty much obsolete.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37107087
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So what's going wrong??
Are the fire deaths actual deaths IN fires, in which case it may be due to the FRS not getting the people out quickly enough; or subsequent deaths in or on arrival at hospital, which may be due to shortcomings in the ambulance service or A&E.
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The increase in domestic deaths looks to be statistically significant, is it not?
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The statistics don't break down the type of dwelling, but already some in the fire alarm industry have started blaming this on flats and stay put and wanting full site wide alarms everywhere....
I wonder what the actual cause behind the trend is. Smoke alarms reversed the trend at one point, then non functional ones seems to have bumped it up, but with the increase in Grade D alarms as oppose to Grade F you would have thought this would have had impact on this.
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Tony, please tell me that people in the fire alarm industry are not really that stupid.
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Should we be getting over concerned with these figures the graph for fire death since the 60's has always been up and down it's the general trend that is more important, which is down. I am not suggesting we shouldn't try to identify the causes and see if anything can be learnt, but let's see if this trend continues.
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Well said Tom, Its probably a statistical blip. you need to look at much longer periods to get an idea of what is going on
We've had a few really good years, followed by a not so good year. look at the data table;
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/546299/fire-statistics-data-tables-fire0501.ods
Bear in mind that the population is increasing over time too so the graph for deaths/capita are maybe a better measure of success.
I regularly hear people suggesting we should move away from stay put in flats, I think that would be a very bad idea.
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Tony, please tell me that people in the fire alarm industry are not really that stupid.
Sadly not, post after post bemoaning the lack of sounders and call points....
The H.O. Statistics Unit has promised to send me the more detailed breakdown of statistics so we can see exactly what sort of dwellings were involved, I'd bet it's not all flats and even those that are it will mostly be fires contained to the flat of origin....
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We have had stay put since the 60's (CP3) without fire alarms, although we didn't give a name, so now why is it such a problem?
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Because Tam, the world has gone mad, fire safety has become a second rate profession, frequently practised by people who are ill-trained and should not be in the profession. Had you not noticed that by now?
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Wee B, I would be inclined at first sight to agree with Tony and your wee selfsome re statistical blips, but, when I did a quick calculation in my head, it looked like the rise in domestic deaths fell within the meaning of statistically significant. When I get a chance I will do the calculation properly. On the other hand, your chums could use the same crystal ball that predicted the number of fire fighter deaths by having a 2000 square metre compartment size for single storey shops, though it probably needs new PP3 batteries by now.
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Not every statistic that is statistically significant is significant. The official crystal ball is in for repairs at the moment, occasionally it gives answers that I don't want it to, so I put it through an impact test.
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Two points, the first is that the figures appear to include the Shoreham Air Disaster which accounted for 11 deaths which would create a blip in the figures and no amount of work by the Fire Service could have stopped that one.
The other point is that if I remember correctly some years ago the pen pushers in the Government decided that the only fatalities that counted were the people who actually died in a fire. If they were removed alive and then died later as a result of their injuries they didn't count. Worked well as the number of fatalities dropped.
The main thing to look for is the overall trend and whether it matches the reduction in fire cover. The main problem here will be the vested interests, the Unions will say it does (because they want to keep more firefighters) and the Government and the Fire Authorities will say it doesn't (as they would have to own up to putting people's lives in more danger).
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Brian, is that like a civil servant who is not civil. Actually, you dont need balls to be a civil servant, just an ability to write Ministerial statements that say nothing, appear to promise a lot and that can be subject to 180 degree change. (Apart from determinations, cos they are really cool.)
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People think its easy.
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And it actually isn't?
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well, amongst other things, it occasionaly involves skills such as, being respectful to people you don't respect, listening politely to people you think are idiots and keeping quiet.
not a career for you my friend :D
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Wee B I never did understand why people in responsible positions and on decent salaries feel they are doing their job by keeping their counsel and not telling the bosses or politicians when they are wrong.
Personally I always took the view that the ratepayers were paying me a decent wage in return for my knowledge, experience, skills and judgement and it would be wrong not to give them the benefit of my opinion for which they are paying.
I reckon I could have gone far in the civil service.
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Kurnal, it is because they don't like being told they are wrong. I was doing a H&S job and was told that the MD said I really knew how to get under his skin. A couple of months later my role was outsourced and I was made redundant and a couple of months after that the firm was taken to court by the HSE.
Mike's view of politics: The civil service run the country, the job of the politicians is to control the civil service. The problem is that the politicians think they run the country, which is a view the civil service like to promote. Unfortunately 'Yes Minister' is closer to fact than fiction.
Yes I am old and cynical.
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its a bit more complicated than that. But not for discussion here ;)
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Brian next time we meet in the Banter Bar, wherever it is now.
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Bear in mind that the population is increasing over time too so the graph for deaths/capita are maybe a better measure of success.
We apparently have a more ageing population; they may be more vulnerable.
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Bear in mind that the population is increasing over time too so the graph for deaths/capita are maybe a better measure of success.
We apparently have a more ageing population; they may be more vulnerable.
Nah, most of them still work in fire safety...
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Big Al, I always wondered why you were never chief officer of Bathmat Lock FRS. Now I know. But I agree you would have gone far in the civil service-probably our embassy in North Vietnam.