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THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Guides and Legislation Links => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on January 07, 2017, 12:19:43 PM
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BS7273-4:2015 says ? In many such premises,(those the public have access) particularly those involving public entertainment or sale of alcohol, the use of electrically secured doors on means of escape is unacceptable to the enforcing authorities/bodies.? Is this correct, as the CLG entertainment guides says they should be risk assessed, who is right?
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I would say in these days of non prescriptive risk assessed fire safety, the guide would appear more appropriate.
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They both can be.
- You might choose compliance with BS 7273-4 as a means of justifying your risk assessment (in fact, in most cases this is probably the appropriate approach);
- If you're designing a system as part of building works then the CLG guides wouldn't normally be the primary basis of design - you'd use the guidance intended for that purpose (e.g. BS 9999, for example, which would refer you to BS 7273-4).
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To clarify my question "Is it unacceptable to FRS/other bodies to have electrically secured doors on escape routes."
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I think its serves as a warning to check with enforcers before going ahead.
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Tom you only have to visit any shopping centre or shop to see your answer?
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No it is not unacceptable subject to appropriate control measures being in place.
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Would you be happy to have electronic locking on a nightclub, theater or public house? The CLG guidance also states that the starting position is that they should not be permitted. However.....
Also, ADB does not like them on exits from rooms with more than 60 people in shop or assembly.
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The CLG "guidance"
I don't like a lot of things but it doesn't mean they are not allowed.
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Quite common in some shops on otherwise panic proof doors, I wonder if they are to 'Critical' specification (which if you were trying to justify their use in an otherwise panic proof exit from shop or assembly you would surely be requiring as part of your justification.
It's not beyond impossibility that a place of assembly might require evacuation without the fire alarm being activated (or possibility only after a delay), if this involves a lot of people unfamiliar with the premises reaching the exit at once (or in a short time) you've got problems as your panic fastenings won't open the door as the mags are still on
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It's not beyond impossibility that a place of assembly might require evacuation without the fire alarm being activated (or possibility only after a delay), if this involves a lot of people unfamiliar with the premises reaching the exit at once (or in a short time) you've got problems as your panic fastenings won't open the door as the mags are still on
In which case I would be looking for robust procedures to ensure the doors are released. I would think that if you are going to try to evacuate a premises without activating an alarm then you will need some good planning. If you look at the normal reaction to a fire alarm (what happens not what we would like to happen) it is going to be difficult to get people moving.
What if scenarios are fine but there is a logical limit to the scenarios, just think of the freedom of information requests to Councils for their plans for zombie invasions. I did some what if scenarios for a Brigade Control Room re the communications between Control and the fire stations and the appliances and finally got to the stage where we realized that not only couldn't Control mobilize the appliances but in that situation no-one could actually get a fire call into control anyway.
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It is easy to override the mag with a mechanical push pad such that the door opens, power on or off. It is the only acceptable means of fastening in Belfast clubs when applying for an entertainment licence. Normally fitted on front doors or doors adjacent the front entrance.
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It is easy to override the mag with a mechanical push pad such that the door opens, power on or off. It is the only acceptable means of fastening in Belfast clubs when applying for an entertainment licence. Normally fitted on front doors or doors adjacent the front entrance.
Am guessing you are talking about a final exit to air ?
A secured door in this scenario to me means there is some kind of swipe / code required to release said door from one or both sides, and if you need to pass through this door as it's on the MoE then it needs to release on a fire condition or any other condition requiring evacuation of the building that doesn't necessarily include the activation of the fire alarm.
In this situation you can't have a crash bar fitted to override the locking mechanism or green break glass .....
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Hi David
I've encountered a similar scenario as the one you describe. We got around the problem by utilising a motorised push bar. It's compliant with BS EN 1125 on the egress side and we have a security card reader on the outside (there are also green 'push button to exit' and break glass points).
It is secure on the entry into the building using the security card reader, then to leave you have the push bar which is mechanical.
I can send a link but don't want to look like I'm spamming or anything. If you're still stuck drop me a message and I'll send you the details and offer an explanation on how we deployed them.
Best regards
F123
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Don't worry f123 post that link and it will help others
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OK so here is a link to the item we used : http://www.strandhardware.co.uk/products/motortouchbar.html
As mentioned, on the entry site it has an access control hooked up to it. Then on the egress it has a push bar. BCO was fine with it and it certainly solved our problem.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks guys for your responses, however I am still the none wiser, my own opinion is the CLG guide is correct, they should be risk assessed, as not all FRS,s would block them, it would depend on the circumstances.
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Thanks F123
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Thanks guys for your responses, however I am still the none wiser, my own opinion is the CLG guide is correct, they should be risk assessed, as not all FRS,s would block them, it would depend on the circumstances.
I am with you on this one Tom, Article 50 guidance is written in support of the Order and therefore sets out the benchmark standards for the fire authorities that enforce it; notwithstanding, both risk assessors and fire authorities do need to be aware of any relevant British Standards and have due regard for them.
In my experience and from memory the conditions in Article 50 guidance are so onerous, where large numbers of members of public are present, that they defeat the object of fitting a magnetic locking device in the first place.
I suppose that really it's up to the RP to convince the fire authority with their risk assessment in each specific case.
Then of course there's the inconsistency between fire authorities that always needs to be considered; I am not personally aware of any "assured advice" or determinations on this issue.
Might be helpful to share the specific scenario you have in mind Tom, or are you just hypothesizing?
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Tom, for the record, Greater Manchester Fire & Rescue Service's Electronic Locks - Procedure and Guidance (2013) states (in bold wording): "Licensed premises and large public assembly buildings (stadium etc) will be unsuitable for electronic devices on the exit doors".
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Yay, they may speak funny and eat mushy peas and chip butties but when it comes to fire safety they know a thing or two. (Yes, I know Big Al, this is not politically correct, so consider me self-certified as duly told off).
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idlefire when you get to my age, hypothesizing is all that's left other than going to the toilet half a dozen times a night, what is was, I am a subscriber to another forum and the question was asked of me and I needed help.
I would accept the Manchester FRS guidance which says unsuitable which does not forbid completely, I think unacceptable does.
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Guidance is as it says... guidance, and not you must or must not do.
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True brucey baby but the FRS use it as a benchmark and sometimes more.
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My experience Tom is you're dead right