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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Messy on October 26, 2017, 05:35:55 PM
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There's been thousands of column inches, hours of TV and video plus pages of internet information devoted to fitting sprinklers to flats above 18m high in England & Wales in the way and Wales as our Scottish pals enjoy, following Grenfell.
Of course, its pretty clear that a sprinkler or water mist system would have been very useful at Grenfell, as if the fire had been contained in the flat (it nearly was by the LFB), there would have been no (or less) external fire spread and only a few of us would have ever heard of the building. Surely it is now very likely that additional sprinkler requirements will be one of the outcomes of the inquiry, but of course, we will have to wait and see.
I am interested how in Scotland - and elsewhere - when sprinklers are fitted into social housing blocks that suffer vandalism, what sort of provision is made to protect heads from nefarious activities resulting in their actuation? I am aware of sprinkler heads that tuck away out of sight, but unless they are set behind thick plate steel, the yobs are bound to get in and do their worse.
I used to be stationed at North Kensington fire station before I discovered the black art of fire safety. I knew Grenfell Tower fairly well. There was smoke detection on landings behind powder coated steel mesh boxes. Many of the boxes were blackened and had their plastic coating burned off as yobs presumably held lighters against the smoke detectors in order to actuate the fire alarm system. Unfortunately for them, the heads were part of the AOV system so there were no sounders.
The landings were often used as youth clubs during poor weather. Youths would hang around bored, and damage what they could to keep amused. They'd also leave their drugs and used sharps in dry riser outlet boxes (by placing them through the U shaped gap where the boxes were cut to be placed over the riser pipe). The potential for a needlestick injury was a real problem for fire crews setting in to the riser in a hurry.
This is the level of vandalism current right now across the UK in some areas. I can see sprinklers as being a huge target for yobs and ?thousands of damage occurring regularly in some areas
I recall some work being carried out in relation to fitting sprinklers in prison cells. This of course would be an environment where sprinklers may be a target for fun/vandalism. I am not sure what the results were from that work, but perhaps this is an option???
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I recall some work being carried out in relation to fitting sprinklers in prison cells. This of course would be an environment where sprinklers may be a target for fun/vandalism. I am not sure what the results were from that work, but perhaps this is an option???
Watertight doors on the cells would sort that out.
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Davey, has this experience been drawn to the attention of those who might need to know.
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Not by me Colin.
I am a little concerned that this 'easy' response to the disaster, however well intended, may create another issue and was wondering what others here felt. I am sure data exists out there as for example, I assume Scottish social high rises may well be fitted with sprinklers to greater extent than elsewhere. Then of course, Scandinavia and the US could offer solutions - I just don't know.
Bearing in mind your position on the Inquiry, what do you feel my actions should be? (if any?)
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Whilst retrofitting sprinklers everywhere would undoubtedly have some benefit have the pro-retro faction thought about water supplies (as well as the OP's vandalism issues) as there may not be somewhere big enough for pumps and water tanks. Several older premises we have dealt with over the years (usually shopping centres) have suffered from permanent town main pressure drops such that their systems would no longer meet the performance criteria for the hazard group, warranting pumps and tanks, but there was nowhere to install them, resulting in lots of fire engineering, smoke control upgrades and increased premiums.
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Not sure about the Scottish experience of vandalism, Davey. I do not spend a lot of time in Glasgow, and certainly not after dark. However, there was a recent death in a sprinklered high rise in Scotland.
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As I recall, the scots require sprinklers in the flats, not the common parts. so the vandalism would be limited to the people who want to flood their own home. these people do exist but they are a tad less common than the sort that might think its funny to flood the stairway.
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However, there was a recent death in a sprinklered high rise in Scotland.
Is there any publicly available information on this?
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WeeB, It depends on where the (missing commas) go in the relevant sentence in the Tech handbook. I have told you before about the importance of commas, and now you can see it for yourself. Read the sentence with one comma before the word "including" and then read it again with a comma before the word including and after the word "spaces". You get two different meanings. Anyhow, building regs are only a minimum standard and, if you are running pipework through the common parts you might as well stick some heads in too.
Suppers: not that would advance your knowledge to any material extent.
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However, there was a recent death in a sprinklered high rise in Scotland.
According to http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-41258411 (dated 27 Sept 2017)
Fifteen people have died and more than 480 have been hurt in high-rise fires in Scotland since 2009. But the BBC has learned that just one of those casualties was injured in a flat fitted with a sprinkler system.
(Quite a nice exploding ambulance though at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-41836625
Inappropriate frivolity removed
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I visited the Sheffield Callow Mount flats just after the retro fitting of sprinklers. This was an excellent project which was carried out whilst the tennants remaind in their flats.
see link to BRE presentation.
https://www.bre.co.uk/filelibrary/Sustainability%20through%20Planning/Callow_mount_Retrofitting_sprinkler_systems_Steve_Seaber.pdf
Fatalties could still happen in sprinklered flats particularly if the person is directly involved in a fire ie smoking in bed.
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Not sure what your point is Owain. See:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/man-left-fighting-life-after-11251543
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Not sure what your point is Owain. See:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/man-left-fighting-life-after-11251543
I can't find a report of a death - only of him as a (serious) casualty.
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Sadly, he subsequently died.
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Sadly, he subsequently died.
He was got out of the building alive, so probably had more of a chance than he would have had without sprinklers.
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Unfortunately, death is digital not analogue. The fact someone nearly survived does not make them alive. I nearly married Joanna Lumley, but she never replied to any of my letters of proposal. But the fact that I wrote to her meant I had a better chance of marrying her than if I had not written. it remains very sad for her that she missed such an opportunity.
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Not sure what your point is Owain. See:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/man-left-fighting-life-after-11251543
I can't find a report of a death - only of him as a (serious) casualty.
There are many such examples in the USA.
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NFPA published the following report in July this year,
http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/fire-safety-equipment/us-experience-with-sprinklers
some good info especially on failure rates.
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NFPA published the following report in July this year,
http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/fire-statistics/fire-safety-equipment/us-experience-with-sprinklers
Exactly the report that I was thinking of. Table B is particularly relevant.
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Unfortunately, death is digital not analogue. The fact someone nearly survived does not make them alive. I nearly married Joanna Lumley, but she never replied to any of my letters of proposal. But the fact that I wrote to her meant I had a better chance of marrying her than if I had not written. it remains very sad for her that she missed such an opportunity.
I?m sure she will nearly regret it for the rest of her life Dot!
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Dot, if Ms Lumley dies before you (likely - as you say you will never die!) she may re-incarnate again, as a horse, and, you may then get to ride her...
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So, if I understand it right, in the USA alone, there are actually on average over 40 deaths every year in sprinklered premises, 35 of which occur in dwellings. And in the majority of cases the sprinklers operated effectively and controlled the fire but did not save the occupant(s).
QED
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Oh, dear... who's going to tell Dany Cotton!?
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May I volunteer my services for this task.
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I see Corbyn is now the the latest political expert on sprinklers asking the Chancellor to set aside a mere ?1 billion to retrofit sprinklers in high-rise social housing blocks.
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I was a little disappointed with his intervention. He is very experienced and he knows that the Chancellor (and Govt) will not do anything until the Grenfell Inquiry has given its findings. I really do not believe the fallout from Grenfell should be kicked about like a political football :(
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How do you feel about women in football, Davey?
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Colin; football has been around a long time and is part of the British psyche, therefore I wouldn't want any footy tradition stuff diluted by women's football. So as long as they carry on rolling around in mud, swapping shirts at the end of the match and sharing a communal bath I have no objections ::)
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Davey, I used to say that women will never understand the offside rule. Obviously, through involvement with your erstwhile employer and others, I have seen the error of my ways and bowed to the equality and diversity thought police. However, given your erstwhile employer's boss's recent statements and your advice (which I have always respected) that it is all a matter of football, I am driven to wonder if I was right in the first place.
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Colin, I was never any good at languages, which has often caused me problems - such as understanding what the hell you are talking about. Despite how tricky they are to wrap, I will try and get some marbles for your Christmas present, as you seem to have mislaid some of yours. ;)
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Oh well, Davey keep thinking about it and all will become clear.