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Technical Advice / Re: fire service intervention in evacuation of a premises
« Last post by Dinnertime Dave on April 22, 2023, 07:34:49 PM »I am a little confused as to your point. You are comparing two different types of premises.
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82
Technical Advice / Re: fire service intervention in evacuation of a premises
« Last post by AnthonyB on April 21, 2023, 08:17:44 PM »The DCLG guides are being rewritten by the same people that wrote the specialised housing guidance (the first three are out) so I'd wait and see what the new ones say.
Resi Care and Specialised Housing are different types of premises with differing strategies too.
Resi Care and Specialised Housing are different types of premises with differing strategies too.
83
Technical Advice / fire service intervention in evacuation of a premises
« Last post by bevfs on April 21, 2023, 12:06:42 PM »Hi All,
Fire safety in specialized housing guide
92.4 In sheltered and extra care housing schemes, there "will be reliance ultimately on rescue by the fire and rescue service"in the event that residents cannot escape by themselves.
against
DCLG Residential Care Premises
p30
Emergency evacuation of persons with mobility impairment
The means of escape you provide must be suitable for the evacuation of everyone
likely to be in your premises. This may require additional planning and allocation
of staff roles ? with appropriate training. Provisions for the emergency evacuation
of disabled persons may include:
? stairways;
? evacuation lifts;
? firefighting lifts;
? horizontal evacuation;
? refuges; and
? ramps.
Use of these facilities will need to be linked to effective management arrangements
as part of your emergency plan. The plan "should not rely on fire and rescue service"
involvement for it to be effective.
What are the thoughts on the differing guidance given on reliance of fire service for evacuation of the premises?
Fire safety in specialized housing guide
92.4 In sheltered and extra care housing schemes, there "will be reliance ultimately on rescue by the fire and rescue service"in the event that residents cannot escape by themselves.
against
DCLG Residential Care Premises
p30
Emergency evacuation of persons with mobility impairment
The means of escape you provide must be suitable for the evacuation of everyone
likely to be in your premises. This may require additional planning and allocation
of staff roles ? with appropriate training. Provisions for the emergency evacuation
of disabled persons may include:
? stairways;
? evacuation lifts;
? firefighting lifts;
? horizontal evacuation;
? refuges; and
? ramps.
Use of these facilities will need to be linked to effective management arrangements
as part of your emergency plan. The plan "should not rely on fire and rescue service"
involvement for it to be effective.
What are the thoughts on the differing guidance given on reliance of fire service for evacuation of the premises?
84
Fire Safety / Re: Escape via an adjacent room
« Last post by Messy on April 16, 2023, 03:42:28 PM »Assuming there are two escape routes, is there a risk of a fire compromising this alternative route and the primary MoE simultaneously and without being detected?
Would it be unsafe (by the numbers using that alternative route) for them to turn around if the exit wasnt available?
I had a huge debate about this in the past when an Inspecting Officer. A landmark basement restaurant in a basement in London had a very large primary exit - via the front entrance - and an alternative along a corridor to the rear. After a renovation, a wall in the corridor which separated it from the main kitchen was removed to create a small 1.5m metre high wall between the escape corridor and the kitchen and completely open above.
My view was there was no problem. the route via the kitchen corridor was unchanged, but was no longer a protected route. The travel distances didnt require it and in any case, it was not possible (other than arson) to have a kitchen fire and a fire on the restaurant floor simultaneously. Many of my peers disagreed - especially the more senior ones who had cut their teeth on fire certification
Luckily I won that battle as my boss was switched on
Would it be unsafe (by the numbers using that alternative route) for them to turn around if the exit wasnt available?
I had a huge debate about this in the past when an Inspecting Officer. A landmark basement restaurant in a basement in London had a very large primary exit - via the front entrance - and an alternative along a corridor to the rear. After a renovation, a wall in the corridor which separated it from the main kitchen was removed to create a small 1.5m metre high wall between the escape corridor and the kitchen and completely open above.
My view was there was no problem. the route via the kitchen corridor was unchanged, but was no longer a protected route. The travel distances didnt require it and in any case, it was not possible (other than arson) to have a kitchen fire and a fire on the restaurant floor simultaneously. Many of my peers disagreed - especially the more senior ones who had cut their teeth on fire certification
Luckily I won that battle as my boss was switched on
85
Fire Safety / Escape via an adjacent room
« Last post by lyledunn on April 16, 2023, 10:16:15 AM »As an alternative MOE from social club premises, occupants exit via a set of doors which are fitted with push bars into a large second room which is ancillary to the club. An exit to the outside is quickly available in the adjacent room.
If a fire was detected at a late stage in the adjacent room, which is rarely used and accessed from a remote external location, escapees might be moving toward the fire.
I know it?s a simple question and perhaps vision panels might assist, but I see the arrangement in many club venues which never seem to be questioned.
Just something uncomfortable about it!?
If a fire was detected at a late stage in the adjacent room, which is rarely used and accessed from a remote external location, escapees might be moving toward the fire.
I know it?s a simple question and perhaps vision panels might assist, but I see the arrangement in many club venues which never seem to be questioned.
Just something uncomfortable about it!?
86
Technical Advice / Re: Definitions
« Last post by lyledunn on April 15, 2023, 01:25:36 PM »It might seem a bit of a daft question that I am posing but I am trying to understand a requirement in BS7671 which impacts on some crucial aspects of electrical installation work
So, would you consider a protected corridor in a hotel, for example, to be a protected escape route?
So, would you consider a protected corridor in a hotel, for example, to be a protected escape route?
87
Technical Advice / Re: Definitions
« Last post by Crusher on April 13, 2023, 09:50:53 AM »From my perspective/understanding, 'means of escape' includes everything required to leave the premises from your location at the time of alarm/discovery, until you are at a safe place outside of the building i.e. at the bus stop.
This would include rooms, corridors, spaces, protected routes, fire exits, external stairs, evac lifts, ramps, hoists etc. It would also extend to locks on gates in enclosed yards!
This would include rooms, corridors, spaces, protected routes, fire exits, external stairs, evac lifts, ramps, hoists etc. It would also extend to locks on gates in enclosed yards!
88
Technical Advice / Definitions
« Last post by lyledunn on April 12, 2023, 09:05:10 PM »What is the difference between ?escape route? and ?means of escape?
89
Fire Alarm Systems / Re: Testing of Fire Alarms in Communal Areas of Residential Propertes
« Last post by AnthonyB on April 10, 2023, 09:33:17 PM »Yes, as even if the system had been installed as a Grade A system to the residential standard BS5839-6 this still recommends weekly testing.
A responsible person might argue that monthly is OK citing the fire safety provision checks requirement imposed on buildings over 18m/7 storeys under the Fire Safety (England) Regulations only being monthly but is up to them in conjunction with their competent person to determine if that would be a suitable system of maintenance under the Fire Safety Order.
A responsible person might argue that monthly is OK citing the fire safety provision checks requirement imposed on buildings over 18m/7 storeys under the Fire Safety (England) Regulations only being monthly but is up to them in conjunction with their competent person to determine if that would be a suitable system of maintenance under the Fire Safety Order.
90
Fire Alarm Systems / Testing of Fire Alarms in Communal Areas of Residential Propertes
« Last post by Stobswellpond on April 10, 2023, 08:23:42 PM »In many residential properties, there are existing fire alarms or new fire alarms have been installed as mitigation to replace the requirement for a waking watch. These alarms are to BS 5839-1 and this code of practice notes that weekly testes should be carried out on the alarm system. Should the weekly test apply to residential properties?