Office Fire Evacuation Request

[Mike Buckley]

Surely it all comes back to the Risk Assessment. If the findings of the risk assessment are that the action of unplugging the laptop and carrying it out will not significantly delay the person's evacuation time or endanger the person or other people, then it would be reasonable. Hence it would be reasonable to train the staff that if they are at their desk or close to it and they can remove the laptop safely without delaying their evacuation, that is what they should do. If they can't, then leave it. However it would be wrong to put in any inducements to save laptops.

The other thing to do is to develop a business continuity plan to mitigate the effects of a fire or other disaster on the company. If the worst happened, what would your firm do to continue trading?

[Louise M]

We do have a smoke detection alarm system.  Our building is 4 floors high and houses offices.  The buildings around are offices aswell.  The alarm system doesn't have the warning bell, just the one that tells you to leave, throughout the whole building.  We are on the third floor so it's not as if the stairwells are chock-a-block with people by the time we get to them.

The reason for the question now is a change in circumstanes - until recently we have had a nearby space where we stored spare laptops for BCP reasons.  We are losing this facility and we therefore need to update our BCP.

I was not intending to tell people that they must go back for their laptop, just that if they were at their desk and could un-plug easily, then they should do so if they felt able to.  I would not expect them to keep their machines open on the way down; simply snapping the shut will just hibernate them and no data will be lost.

The server is in another building a few miles away so that will always be backed up.  However there will always be documents saved to a machine's memory rather than the server.

[zimmy]

Where did 2.5 minutes come from!!!!!!!! .

God save the king ...apparantly! I pity the greeks who have an anthem 158 verses long and a standard evacuation time in a traditionally constructed building of about 3 and a half hours!!

[PhilB]

Where did 2.5 minutes come from!!!!!!!! .

God save the king ...apparantly! I pity the greeks who have an anthem 158 verses long and a standard evacuation time in a traditionally constructed building of about 3 and a half hours!!

2.5 minutes does originate from a fire evacuation in Edinburgh in 1911......perhaps we should concentrate on time Vs tenability.

Louise from the description of the building I can see no problem. As you point out you are not instructing staff to return to collect laptops, but to take them with them if they can safely do so.

Chris ...yes I would disagree that there is a real and significant risk of people panicking because they have to snap shut a laptop and carry it out of the building.

If you look at the case studies of fires where there has been considerable life loss...panic is not as significant as you believe.

[jokar]

PhilB,  How do you explain time v tenability in an e mail response to a building you don't know, to a person who may not understand the technical bits of it?  The guidance sticks to numbers so shouldn't we in a forum where not all can be engineers?  Not a dig at you but a point about communication.

[wee brian]

I agree but 2.5 minutes is very misleading. It is neither necessary nor possible in many buildings to evacuate in 2.5 minutes.

The 2.5 minutes are an entirely arbitrary number used in the calculation procedures. These sums give us exits and stairs that are (near enough) OK for most situations.

I suppose sticking with 2.5 minutes would be handy if you wanted to avoid the second verse of the National Anthem but other than that it's irrelevant to the real world.

[Mike Buckley]

Just a suggestion, there are a number of organisations which do store laptops etc at no cost for the storage, also the laptops are updated at regular intervals. Look for Currys, Dixons, PC World etc.

[PhilB]

In a normal office environment you would have 2 1/2 mins to reach a place of relative or ultimate safety.  .

Jokar....do you think think everyone understands relative or ultimate safety? I was trying to make the point that 2.5 minutes is not a realistic time to evacuate the type of building in question. I think most people would understand that you should be out of the building before conditions are untenable...I was not trying to confuse anyone and apologise if I have.

P.S. talking about confusion what have Currys or Dixons got to do with this?

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I'll admit ..... I advise people to use time v tenability when carrying out the risk assessment and assessing means of escape.

I prefer it to a time as times may induce panic and also cause problems if people don't think they can evacuate within the specified time ........ as here. If you work out the likely growth and spread of a fire and how that will affect the means of escape, I think (personally) that a more realistic assessment will be made.

[Chris Houston]

Chris ...yes I would disagree that there is a real and significant risk of people panicking because they have to snap shut a laptop and carry it out of the building.

If you look at the case studies of fires where there has been considerable life loss...panic is not as significant as you believe.

It's not as simple as that, in an office environment everyone is not always sat at their desk, their desk is not always tidy, everyone doesn't always remember exactly what is asked of them - especially with 65 decibels of fire alarm in their ears, the cables are not always easily accessible.  

I don't have the information you have, it does seem you may know more about evacuations than me, but looking towards historical incidents, it's safe to assume that these were not situations where people were asked to unplug IT equipment and take it with them, this is probably a new thing to consider.

[PhilB]

But Chis Louise was not suggesting that people away from their desk should return. Those at their desks who could do so safely could quickly shut down and take the lap top with them. There are not many cables to disconnect, if any and they are small and easy to carry.

Are you suggesting that bank staff and store cashiers should run sceamimg to the exits as soon as the alarm sounds without securing the cash?...and what about the person having his teeth pulled in Kurnals dental surgery? I believe that buildings can have varying evacuation strategies appropriate to the occupancy.

Studies of behaviour of persons in real fires does not support your belief that panic is common place. Read the case studiies of incidents such as Woolworths, Bradford,Summerland, Kingscross, Maysfield Leisure Centre, Littlewoods Chesterfield, etc etc. It is failure to raise the alarm and lack of urgency when the alarm is raised that usually causes the problems...not panic.

[Chris Houston]

But Chis Louise was not suggesting that people away from their desk should return. Those at their desks who could do so safely could quickly shut down and take the lap top with them. There are not many cables to disconnect, if any and they are small and easy to carry.

Are you suggesting that bank staff and store cashiers should run sceamimg to the exits as soon as the alarm sounds without securing the cash?...and what about the person having his teeth pulled in Kurnals dental surgery? I believe that buildings can have varying evacuation strategies appropriate to the occupancy.

Studies of behaviour of persons in real fires does not support your belief that panic is common place. Read the case studiies of incidents such as Woolworths, Bradford,Summerland, Kingscross, Maysfield Leisure Centre, Littlewoods Chesterfield, etc etc. It is failure to raise the alarm and lack of urgency when the alarm is raised that usually causes the problems...not panic.

I will read these, I am pretty sure you are right.  But I am pretty sure that this delay is unnecessary, I'm looking at my laptop now, it has a power cable, a printer, an external disk drive, a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse and a phone line cable in the back.  I know some older people who could fumble around for a good 15 minutes trying to get them all out.

I'm sure there are many situations in military, nuclear, medical and high value assett situations where additional things need to be done, but I don't think that those who work in a normal office environment, presumably one that has managed until now without the collection of laptops, should be asked to do this.  

Perhaps panic was the wrong word for me to use, my point was that the panic would lead to a delay in removing the laptop and this is perhaps similar to the "lack of urgency" that you speak about.

Nonetheless, who ever does the risk assessment can make their own decision.  I hope our varying opinions help that person.