Hertitage Fire Safety - Making heavy fire doors self closing???????

[messy]

I have recently come across some huge ornate timber doors leading onto a staircase at G & 1st floor level, of a former 6 storey domestic dwelling (now used as offices) which need to be 'fire doors' to protect the staircase.

The doors are hung in pairs (4 sets) and are 10ft tall and about 6" thick - solid timber. I have no doubt that they can be easily upgraded - when closed now they are probably 3 hr doors!!-  but how can this extremely heavy of door be made self closing??

The premises are Grade II listed which may pose difficulties(?) and it's likely that any mechanism will need to be slim or perhaps hidden.

I am sure this is nothing new in the world of heritage fire safety and would be interested in your views or experience of how similar problems have been resolved

[kurnal]

What about the force needed to open such heavy doors and the DDA?
Can we not create the line of fire resistance elsewhere?
Do people need to pass through them in an emergency? I once came across a drop down fire curtain in this sort of scenario.
I have never encountered doors this thick- there are sprung floorplate pivot  hinges available - but I would try to engineer these doors out of the life safety equation if at all possible.

[Ken Taylor]

Would they accept large heavy-duty ornate brass closers?

[John Webb]

The English Heritage booklet 'Timber panelled doors and fire' published in 1997, while dealing mostly with the upgrading of doors, also comments on door closers in para 5.6.3. It points out that door closers can be omitted if the management discipline is in place to ensure fire marshals close all fire doors when the fire alarm sounds. Presumeably this could be translated into something equivalent for your premises?

[kurnal]

Hey John for the first time in these forums  I find myself not in complete agreement with you. Thats reassuring!! The advice in the English Heritage booklet is fine I think so long as the door in question is not part of an escape route through which persons have to pass. ( The same goes for my drop down curtain )
It is a solution to enclose a risk area that persons have to pass.
Now why wouldn't we want a warden with a master key to unlock the fire exit door at the same time? Suddenly we find the fire warden not to be an adequate safeguard!

[John Webb]

I presume from messy's posting that these doors do lead onto an escape route (otherwise why would the doors need to be FR?) So if each floor has fire wardens/marshalls to oversee evacuation they are presumably the last out and could close the doors behind them? I have to say it's not a solution which entirely meets with with my approval. I thought I'd mention it for messy's attention as a method someone had used to overcome a similar-sounding problem in the past.
It does concern me that if the doors were to be self-closing when the FA sounds, would it be difficult for people to open them to make their escape through them because of their size? Is there the posibility to look at an alternative means of escape for those two floors so these doors can be allowed to close without affecting people's departure? What will messy be able to do with 'reasonable and practicable' in his FRA after 1st October? So many questions!

[messy]

Thanks for everyone's advice

Just to further describe these doors and the building:

They are solid carved timber doors, almost 4" thick with a 4 x 1  'plank' fixed around the edge of both faces which makes them nearly 6" thick at the perimeter. They have huge parliament hinges which take most of the weight. The remaining load passes through a discreet wheel fitted to each bottom outside corner, which runs along a curved brass plate set into the floorboards.

As a result, any self closer would need to overcome the sheer weight of the door and the friction of the revolving wheel on it's brass plate.

The building is a former posh terraced townhouse similar to that depicted in the TV show 'Upstairs Downstairs'-  the doors in question would have led to the main drawing rooms within the house (Hudson must have been a strong bloke opening them all day!).

It's now multi-occupied offices with both sets of doors being in the control of a single occupier. The occupiers appear to open at least one side of the set (each opening has a pair of doors) at the beginning of business and close it when their office is vacated.

The doors do lead onto the only staircase in the building and there is no way of further enclosing them. However there is an exit route via a neighbouring building on the 4th (top) floor.

I was thinking along the lines of a system of a named person/warden closing each doorset when evacuating due to the AFD operating. This system would be backed up by regular (quarterly) fire drills so that occupiers on all upper floors are aware of the alternative exit if required.

Getting the building's Management Company, the neighbours and every occupier to agree maybe the most difficult part!!

[John Webb]

From messy's description I doubt if there is a closer 'off the shelf' that could cope with such doors. Either a special closer (Hydraulic/electrically operated?) would possibily need development - or perhaps a use a large external gate closer - if you can get listed building permission? Besides the cheap warden or expensive device closing the door solutions could you under your FRA point out that the AFD will alert people very early on and enable escape without the doors having to be closed? Possibly a sprinkler system limited to the rooms behind these doors to actively deal with any fire?
The only other idea to cross my mind is to build a glass 'lobby' inside each room served by these doors with more standard-sized doors for everyday use - these could easily be closed on AFD actuation by standard releases and provide the necessary isolation. But again a pricey option and would it be acceptable in the listed building context? (We're considering something similar at my own church - 8ft high external doors, 5ft overall width, but much lighter construction - to control draughts, particularly in the Winter months.)

[kurnal]

The main problem will always be a fire in the room served by the large doors - I guess there will be sufficient ceiling height above the door frame still to create a large smoke reservoir. but the high door may diminish the effectiveness of the smoke reservoir. Simple calculation for a standard design fire should show the time taken for the reservoir to fill and  staircase to become affected for a fire in these rooms. Time to detect and time to respond will then indicate whether the door will be closed by the warden before the smoke reservoir is filled.

The people at risk are those in the upper floors should the effects of the fire spill out into the stair because the door is open. If there was a conventional door with SC device the door would be open as long as it took the occupants to escape into the hall ( unless there is an alternative route from these ground floor rooms) . This is effectively little  different to the warden closing the door once everyone has gone.  


If there is an alternastive route from the ground floor rooms so the door can be shut on detection of fire- I say no problem with the use of the warden- provided the arrangement is robust.

If there is no alternative from the ground floor rooms and the  door is so high as to impinge into the desired smoke reservoir then a  glass downstand or drop down curtain to the depth of the desired reservoir may be all that is needed to make it safe, in conjunction with the warden.

PS- another approach would be  to knock another link into next door at first floor level and screen off, or screen off and go for upward escape route to the upper floor and into next door through the existing door- undesirable but may be justified on balance of all other factors.