Holiday Cottages

[Dinnertime Dave]

I`m with Tall Paul here. single domestic premise. A good talking point, but that is all it is - haven`t inspecting officers got any proper work to do?

 HFSC - home fire safety check? is this a quiz? Hope so, others include HFRA (home fire risk assessment) & HFRC (home fire risk check) they are different names in all brigades but means the same putting up smoke alarms.

[PhilB]

single domestic idea??? what is this premise you speak of???

[Midland Retty]

I too doubt whether holiday cottages would fall under the FSO, as for instance, a group of students sharing a house for a few terms wouldn't, so why should a family of four (and a dog) attract such attention???

I`m with Tall Paul here. single domestic premise. A good talking point, but that is all it is - haven`t inspecting officers got any proper work to do?

Messy Nope holiday cottages wouldn't be covered by the RRO as they are for all intent and purposes the same as single dwelling lets.

However I must take you to task on the subject of student accomodation - the scenario you describe would definately be a HMO no doubt about it regardless of the term of let

Dinnertime Dave - Yes Inspecting Officers have got better things to do but what with their new legislation (the RRO) that give them powers to go into a much wider range of premises - premises which they weren't able to enforce within before despite them being death traps and also the recent HMO licensing schemes which have come into play has highlighted the need to focus on small accomodation.

So if it make people safer what exactly is the problem Dinnertime Dave?

[Dinnertime Dave]

Midland Retty Wrote:

Yes Inspecting Officers have got better things to do but what with their new legislation (the RRO) that give them powers to go into a much wider range of premises - premises which they weren't able to enforce within before despite them being death traps.
 
So if it makes people safer what exactly is the problem Dinnertime Dave?

My apologies Midland Retty if I offended you it really wasn`t my intention – my point is that my brigades inspection regime is to concentrate on the high risk premises first. Holiday lets don`t fall into that category.

Yes in theory we can now enforce in a wider range of premises but I could deal with most of the things that come into my office by way of a standard letter.

Building Regulations - once occupied must comply with RRO
Licensing - comply with RRO
Enquiries- buy or download this guide or that guide.

Don’t they say that the idea behind the RRO is to make fire safety ‘self regulatory’

A cynical view would be that this is precisely what the RRO is all about, reducing the workload of Inspecting officers consequently reducing the number of inspecting officers, and going the way of HSE.

In practice I don’t do that because I do honestly believe that as the public pays my wage that I should be here to make the people who visit, live and work my county safer. (Romantic fool you say)

However, there appears to be a train of thought at principle officer level that I should tell the public which guide to get and if they don’t comply with the regulations and anything happens we will prosecute. I do get challenged by senior officers as to why I might have spent 6 hours on a building regulation submission when I could just give the above response. My answer is 6 hours spent now might save 20 hours in 12 months time and maybe a life.

As for dealing with these death traps. Are a lot of these new premises really death traps? Yes some might be and the full force of the law should come down on the owners of these premises. But how many people are actually dying in these places. Fortunately very few.

Right i`m off on my holidays have a good two weeks

[jokar]

PhilB, much too subtle.

[PhilB]

PhilB, much too subtle.

Sorry Jokar...at least someone understood.

With regard to the arguement...I would refer posters to Prof Evertons paper on this subject......on many occassions holiday lets will be subject to the fire safety order......but please FSOs let's use some common sense and enforce appropriate to the risk.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Dinnertime Dave

No offence taken old chum... just playing devils advocate.

You are right - Holiday lets aren't very high up the pecking order, but somehow i think hotels and small guesthouses are going to be very high on the agenda following the weekend's events in Cornwall

[AndyJ]

Midland Retty Wrote:

Yes Inspecting Officers have got better things to do but what with their new legislation (the RRO) that give them powers to go into a much wider range of premises - premises which they weren't able to enforce within before despite them being death traps.
 
So if it makes people safer what exactly is the problem Dinnertime Dave?

My apologies Midland Retty if I offended you it really wasn`t my intention – my point is that my brigades inspection regime is to concentrate on the high risk premises first. Holiday lets don`t fall into that category.

Yes in theory we can now enforce in a wider range of premises but I could deal with most of the things that come into my office by way of a standard letter.

Building Regulations - once occupied must comply with RRO
Licensing - comply with RRO
Enquiries- buy or download this guide or that guide.

Don’t they say that the idea behind the RRO is to make fire safety ‘self regulatory’

A cynical view would be that this is precisely what the RRO is all about, reducing the workload of Inspecting officers consequently reducing the number of inspecting officers, and going the way of HSE.

In practice I don’t do that because I do honestly believe that as the public pays my wage that I should be here to make the people who visit, live and work my county safer. (Romantic fool you say)

However, there appears to be a train of thought at principle officer level that I should tell the public which guide to get and if they don’t comply with the regulations and anything happens we will prosecute. I do get challenged by senior officers as to why I might have spent 6 hours on a building regulation submission when I could just give the above response. My answer is 6 hours spent now might save 20 hours in 12 months time and maybe a life.

As for dealing with these death traps. Are a lot of these new premises really death traps? Yes some might be and the full force of the law should come down on the owners of these premises. But how many people are actually dying in these places. Fortunately very few.

Right i`m off on my holidays have a good two weeks

Your "cynical view"  is  pretty cynical Dave and (trust me) not what was intended by the authors of the Order. As for the holiday lets, I'm with Prof Everton, they are in the main subject to the Order - basically they fail the "private" bit of the definition of domestic premises. As Wee Brian said what is most important is how they are dealt with if they are inspected - but if they are in an FRS fireground where a risk based enforcment regime is properly in place then I wouldn't have expected them to figure highly on the agenda and I hope we are not going to see an ill judged  knee jerk reaction following the tragedy in Cornwall.

Happy holidays.

[Dinnertime Dave]

single domestic idea??? what is this premise you speak of???

Sorry for the poor English PhilB I meant to write 'single domestic premisES' what I really meant though was individual private dwelling.

I was already in holiday mood - incidentally in a holiday cottage in Wales Owned by the inlaws, two domestic smoke detectors and no fire risk assessment before anyone asks.

[nearlythere]

. The result will probably lead to a large number of premises going out of business.

Tully: Are you saying that this is inevitable, desirable or perhaps an aim of your FRS?

What happened to the enforcement concordat and 'reasonableness'.

Your FRS would do well to utilise FINDS before setting out on this foolish project to see what other FRS's have experienced.

With regards to protected staircases discharging into a room rather that a final exit, there's already history of a magistrates court uphoding an appeal of an enforcement notice and allowing a single staircase in a 4 storey pub (with accomodation over) to discharge into the high risk bar area.

I too doubt whether holiday cottages would fall under the FSO, as for instance, a group of students sharing a house for a few terms wouldn't, so why should a family of four (and a dog) attract such attention???

Are the Magistrate's Courts involved in legal appeals in some areas?