EN54-2 (clause 12?) the delaying of fire alarm outputs.

[John Harrison-French]

Hi
Has anyone got any information on this topic. The concert hall/swimming pool/ice rink I will be replacing the fire alarm system in has a delay of 90 seconds on P.A.V.A and fire alarm sounders. This is to allow investigation of the activation by trained security staff before the evacuation of anything up to 6000 people. As I am aware en54-2 doesn't allow delays on fire alarm outputs?. This system has been in operation for 16 years and has worked well.

Thanks
John Harrison-French

[kurnal]

BS5839 part 1 2002  clause 19.2.2 allows a delay of up to six minutes to enable trained staff to investigate the cause of an alarm signal. Operation of a break glass unit should normally over ride this delay, or  at the end of the period, if the the alarm is not cancelled system should revert to the evacuation signal.

Cant comment on the specifics of EN54- 2  though- sorry.

[John Harrison-French]

Thanks for the reply Kurnal
The issue is with the panel we use and its conformity to EN54 part 2 & 4. The only way to enable output delays is in the menu system. Which shows a permanent disablement on the panel. This panel has recently gained EN54-2 conformity and I emagine rather than re-write the menu structure they have added this option to conform on a structure that wasn't designed with EN54 regs in mind. The main reason for this post is to find a little more information on EN54-2 clause 12 (I think) and maybe find a panel that does conform and allow output delays. Which certainly in this instance is a reasonable request.

A Hopeful member

[kurnal]

I know Gent Vigilon allows this.

[John Harrison-French]

Thats right but we are a small company that are just going for SP203 and you have to spend to much to get Gent 24. Very good panels though. I know the SMS option but all are very pricey.

[kurnal]

Thinking again I believe the vigilon panel MAY also show the delay as a disablement- I have encountered this before on a door release interface and the commissioning engineer explained  it as one of those EN52 / BS5839 conflicts. If the delay block works ok and in accordance with 5839 can you not declare it as a variation  on the commissioning certificate and live with it permanently showing on the EN54 panel? One of my clients has accepted this but for doors not for sounders. I guess in a system of your size you will end up with as many disablements as loops.

[John Harrison-French]

Yes i've seen the same on old 3400 panels. Its a bit crazy really to expect 6000 people to evacuate a building because of a malicious fire activation and it does happen in that building. The responce from the fire service was keep the delay. The risk has been assessed and its a practice that works. The mind boggles.

[Ark Angel]

Hi There,

The Gent vigilon does indeed show a disablement when delays are in use. This applies to the EN54 version only and all EN54 panels must show this to comply with the EN standard.

Unfortunately I don't know of any panel that is EN54 compliant where you can switch this off.

This was a big problem with EN as a lot of clients think they have a fault on the panel when in fact in it only has sounder delays in use.

I think EN54 also says this must be represented as an amber visual indication, and that time delays must not exceed 10mins or 600seconds.

[IrishFire]

Hi There,

The Gent vigilon does indeed show a disablement when delays are in use. This applies to the EN54 version only and all EN54 panels must show this to comply with the EN standard.

Unfortunately I don't know of any panel that is EN54 compliant where you can switch this off.

This was a big problem with EN as a lot of clients think they have a fault on the panel when in fact in it only has sounder delays in use.

I think EN54 also says this must be represented as an amber visual indication, and that time delays must not exceed 10mins or 600seconds.

I think the MX panel by Tyco (ADT) shows no active disablement lights ewhen this is programmed.

[chris.]

Some panels have a separate indicator, immediate outputs delayed that stays on, leaving the disablement led free for real isolations

[David Rooney]

I think Kentec Syncro can have delays put on without bringing up amber lights, or if not, Advanced panels are good as they display the countdown timer so you know exactly how long you've got left to search !

[IrishFire]

I think Kentec Syncro can have delays put on without bringing up amber lights, or if not, Advanced panels are good as they display the countdown timer so you know exactly how long you've got left to search !

You are correct, although I was asked by a customer how are they to see the timer when they are searching (quite funny I thought at the time)