Addressable panel, non addressable devices

[AnthonyB]

In several buildings I have seen they have largely original devices - original cables, original bells, original non addressable ('conventional') call points & non addressable detection dating back to the 70's/80's but that at some point someone has replaced the non addressable panel with an addresable one.

Will the panel ony be able to report fire zones as the devices and wiring set up are still the original non addressable ones or is there a way of making them report as indvidual devices/addresses? And can you tell easily if this has been done?

I would have thought not, but one user assures me this can be done and he would know exactly which call point or head went off despite them being very old non addressable devices from the original installation.

[Wiz]

Anthony, In every system I have ever seen, you need addressable devices to work with an addressable panel.

It could well be that the addressable 'device' is actually the detector base and the detector itself is the same as detectors used on non-addressable systems.

When you have addressable devices, fire zoning becomes a function of the control panel software rather than a consequence of how circuits are wired.

So yes, the scenario you describe could be addressable, but I am amazed they are getting it to work on cabling from the 70/80's.

I would suggest that the easiest way to check if they are really addressable devices is to temporarily disconnect all or part of any of the original zone wiring and I would expect the addressable panel to 'notice' and 'report' all the individual addressable devices it now can't 'see', rather than a simple 'zone fault' condition that would indicate on a non-addressable panel.

[Allen Higginson]

I have seen it done with (as stated) addressable bases and contact monitors to which the BGU's are connected to (Hochiki equipment).

[AnthonyB]

I thought this may be so - I've also heard the call points being reported as adressable despite being 1970's Gent ones (rectangular red ones with the round glass and hammer on chain) and thus with no computer chip and appearing not to have been altered in any way (original mounting box, etc)

Is there any point mixing and matching like this (e.g. pinpoint detectors by upgrading and addressing for false alarm tracing but leave call points as they are on zones only), or is it easier to keep putting non addressable panels and devices in until the whole lot cable and all is to be replaced and then start afresh - I wonder what grounds the enginer uses to mix like this?

[Ark Angel]

I believe those types of callpoints are now non compliant as they have to be broken with a tool (Hammer). You now must have elements or glasses installed in the MCP's which break with a human hand but remain intact i.e. don't shatter.

[monkeh]

existing cabling and devices can be used quite easily using zone monitoring units, however all devices will simply respond to the main panel in exactly the same way. ie it will still work in its original zone format, only specifying an area rather than an exact device.

[Graeme]

As mentioned-pretty pointless to have i.e an 8 zone non addressable control panel swapped to a/a and keep all the field devices.

The system would run 8 zone monitor units which would only give as much detail as the non addressable one and not individual devices,so i can't see the logic in it.

The user that assures you probably means he can tell exactly what zone has went off but he will still have to search that zone for the device in alarm state,or unless there is a zmu for ever single device on the loop,which i doubt

[Wiz]

I believe those types of callpoints are now non compliant as they have to be broken with a tool (Hammer). You now must have elements or glasses installed in the MCP's which break with a human hand but remain intact i.e. don't shatter.

This might be the case, but you can't necessarily force someone to replace something that was previously compliant, just because it doesn't now meet subsequently issued standards.

[Ark Angel]

This is true Wiz, but when panels and devices etc are swapped out in this case isn't there a need for the installation to be compliant or variations raised from B.S.

[Graeme]

In this case the panel was upgraded but not devices so it could be argued that it was a modification,in which case all the new work should comply to the new standard.(panel)

But you could stress that all the detection is way past the 10 year recommended life and should be upgraded.
I would not entertain using detection this old.

[Wiz]

This is true Wiz, but when panels and devices etc are swapped out in this case isn't there a need for the installation to be compliant or variations raised from B.S.

Ark Angel, The answer to the above can defintely be 'no' in many circumstances.

My previous comment was solely in response to your comment about the call points being non-compliant.

My original comments and this post relate to my understanding of the recommendations of BS5839 Part 1 2002 and not what 'would be nice or preferable or even sensible' but just what is recommended by BS.

The original post confirmed that the original call points were retained but you intimated that these were suddenly no longer suitable in some way in the installation mentioned because they are not compliant with current standards. This is not necessarily the case.

If they had been replaced, then the new ones would need to comply with current standards but the original ones don't automatically need replacing with 'latest standard compliant' versions just because a new control panel has been installed.

[Benzerari]

It depends really of each case,....... as it has been said, if the cabling of 70s-80s are still liable, and no earth faults has come up since their first installation....few decades ago! Usually alterations happen from time to time, I would wonder if the cabling are still intact.
The other major problem is that, are the cabling run the way your new design wants, in order to combine that old cabling and the old conventional devices with a new addressable panel? Probably you may need to extend the system with new cabling where required and remove unwanted parts to make it conform to the new level of protection and your new desing.