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Author Topic: Design or No Design  (Read 7907 times)

Offline Galeon

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Design or No Design
« on: February 11, 2008, 03:26:44 PM »
A client of mine has paid a fee for a consultant to advise on the level of detection he requires in a specific location , however when I advised my client  I need confirmation of the 'design' in relation to our commissioning element , he advises that the consultant did not carry out a design , just advised the requirements of the amount of detection required. I would have thought that upon being paid a fee , for this advice in this manner , he has no choice in producing a design certificate.
Any thoughts gentlemen ?

(Please note the amount of work involved exceeds what I call modification).
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Offline Allen Higginson

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Design or No Design
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2008, 03:58:34 PM »
Should have been some sort of design cert to go along with the install  and commissioning certs on final handover.
Although I have had projects that a third party done the design before and the certificate was absent.
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Offline Benzerari

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Design or No Design
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2008, 04:14:01 PM »
Quote from: Galeon
A client of mine has paid a fee for a consultant to advise on the level of detection he requires in a specific location , however when I advised my client  I need confirmation of the 'design' in relation to our commissioning element , he advises that the consultant did not carry out a design , just advised the requirements of the amount of detection required. I would have thought that upon being paid a fee , for this advice in this manner , he has no choice in producing a design certificate.
Any thoughts gentlemen ?

(Please note the amount of work involved exceeds what I call modification).
I had been in a similar situation when worked with previous companies, I had been told each time when asking to what level I should commission the system. the answer was:

                                                 'Just go and do it'

This sort of mentality and way of work that let me look for the right company for me just like the other way round wants too...

I used to see rooms open to the common area with detectors and other similar ones without..., systems designed to certain level of protection between L2 and L3 sort of.... and lots of issues

In fact I found my self resurveying the system from the beginning while doing commissioning and reporting all what I thought no logic.

I think I leave the expert in BS5839 to enlighten us with their interpretations about what should be recommended in such situation!

Thank you
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Offline Galeon

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Design or No Design
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 04:18:48 PM »
Fair comment guys , seems this quite a regular occurance.
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Offline Benzerari

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Design or No Design
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 06:54:15 PM »
Quote from: Galeon
Fair comment guys , seems this quite a regular occurance.
Yes indeed;

Some managers said just commission the system as you found it, make it working, and test all detectors for normal working operation and so on..., sign a hand over the commissioning certificate and that's it.

                                                           Thinking money only

I had been in a situation were an important part of the floor did not have any sounders or bells. even the drawings I had been given did not state any on that area, the drawing was not looking as a professional clean design, it was in fact young electrician who carried out the 1st and 2nd fix as he'd been told just by words of mouth.

                                                  Yes such things still exist nowadays

The electrician left for holiday... and left us with many open, short circuit and missing parts…

I made a full report and send it to my manager, as usual he was busy with ......, he could not remember where he saved the report, as a result, after hand over the customer started normally their first weekly bell test it was in fact their first (fire drill), they straight away reported to us that in one of the floors the tenant did not evacuate because none of them had heard alarms.

After investigation and serious meetings with seniors managers of all concerned parts, the blame was to put on us for the simple reason that we had issued a commissioning certificate not stating any thing wrong, the company had paid for all of that extra work to fit extra sounders... as a result I was the first to be blamed because I did not handover a copy of the report with the commissioning certificate to customer.

This last bit was my mistake and hopefully only the once
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Offline Galeon

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Design or No Design
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 07:28:22 PM »
I hope you managed to stay off the beer !
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Offline Benzerari

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Design or No Design
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 08:05:05 PM »
Quote from: Galeon
I hope you managed to stay off the beer !
Change of PUB since  :)
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Offline wee brian

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Design or No Design
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 09:16:53 PM »
I suspect that the term design is being used in two ways.  As a fire safety consultant I would only suggest what spec was required(L1 or L3 etc). It would then be for the services engineer of alarm subcontractor to "design" the system.

If its a bit complicated I may show which rooms have smokes or heats and but not exactly where they go or how many there are.
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Offline Galeon

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Design or No Design
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 10:21:56 PM »
Quote from: wee brian
I suspect that the term design is being used in two ways.  As a fire safety consultant I would only suggest what spec was required(L1 or L3 etc). It would then be for the services engineer of alarm subcontractor to "design" the system.

If its a bit complicated I may show which rooms have smokes or heats and but not exactly where they go or how many there are.
I take your view on this , but for them to issue drawings , it seems they over stepped this wonderful grey line
Regards
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Offline Benzerari

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Design or No Design
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2008, 09:39:07 AM »
Quote from: wee brian
I suspect that the term design is being used in two ways.  As a fire safety consultant I would only suggest what spec was required(L1 or L3 etc). It would then be for the services engineer of alarm subcontractor to "design" the system.

If its a bit complicated I may show which rooms have smokes or heats and but not exactly where they go or how many there are.
Yes, that's fine but the design step has to be dealt with according to your spec...., a design engineer has to design it using any sort of CAD drawing that suits, then sign a certificate and hand it with the design to the installer to carry on the first and second fix accordingly, then it comes to the commissionning engineer for the final step ( la mise on marche ).... according to the design provided.

If any of these satges is missing the last engineer would be not just blamed, but also pay the price of any thing goes wrong...

As a result in my opinion, the operation manager or supervisor has to make sure there is no missing link in some stage, to avoid such things...
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Offline Galeon

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Design or No Design
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2008, 09:57:35 AM »
Quote from: Benzerari
Quote from: wee brian
I suspect that the term design is being used in two ways.  As a fire safety consultant I would only suggest what spec was required(L1 or L3 etc). It would then be for the services engineer of alarm subcontractor to "design" the system.

If its a bit complicated I may show which rooms have smokes or heats and but not exactly where they go or how many there are.
Yes, that's fine but the design step has to be dealt with according to your spec...., a design engineer has to design it using any sort of CAD drawing that suits, then sign a certificate and hand it with the design to the installer to carry on the first and second fix accordingly, then it comes to the commissionner for the final step ( la mise on marche ).... according to the design provided.

If any of this satges are missing the last engineer would be not just blamed, but also pay the price of any thing goes wrong...

As a result in my opinion, the operation manager or supervisor has to make sure there is no missing link in some stage, to avoid such things...
All you can do , is cover your rear , and when the **** hits the fan play the game by the rules that have already been put in place.
Thanks for you input lads.
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